- TechToolsList - listserv.classicarcade.com

Re: Logic Probe
by John Robertson 12 Jan '01

12 Jan '01

Not sure about the RS Logic Probe. I've used a Heathkit for over twenty years-it's been great, and I have several other logic probes, including the HP one. I usually look for my old Heathkit one for ease of use and clear indication of results. It has bright lights right at the nose so you can easily see the results, plus it seems to be quite accurate. John :-#)# At 06:00 AM 1/12/2001, mike_ranger(a)dofasco.ca wrote: >Hi all... > Just a quick note, and I do not want any "eww, radio shack" replies >okay? :-) > > I was there yesterday and the store I was at indicated they were >discontinuing the logic probe and had two, on sale for $11.99, down from >$29.99. A good price, eh? > >Mike >(only in Canada eh? Pity) > > To UNSUBSCRIBE from techtoolslist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the > message body to: techtoolslist-request(a)flippers.com. Please direct other > questions, comments, or problems to jrr(a)flippers.com.

1 0

Logic Probe
by mike_ranger＠dofasco.ca 12 Jan '01

12 Jan '01

Hi all... Just a quick note, and I do not want any "eww, radio shack" replies okay? :-) I was there yesterday and the store I was at indicated they were discontinuing the logic probe and had two, on sale for $11.99, down from $29.99. A good price, eh? Mike (only in Canada eh? Pity) To UNSUBSCRIBE from techtoolslist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the message body to: techtoolslist-request(a)flippers.com. Please direct other questions, comments, or problems to jrr(a)flippers.com.

1 0

Re: RASTER: Wico Pattern generator
by John Robertson 09 Jan '01

09 Jan '01

I have modified our Wico Raster gen to have several "extra" features. One is inverted sync, and the second is composite sync. If anyone is interested I'll sketch it out after printing off the schematics. It involves a 7486 some pull-up resistors and a toggle switch. John :-#)# At 04:02 PM 08/01/2001, tom mcclintock wrote: >I've finally scanned the Wico RASTER pattern generator 'manual', chip >list and the schematics. The pdf document is about 141 KB in size. > >Here's the link: > >http://www.ionpool.net > >I've also got a smaller version of the Vector pattern generator >technical sheet up on the site (Thanks to David Haynes!). Sadly, no >schematics (yet) for the vector pattern generator. I'm working on it! >I'm working on it! > >tom >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >** To UNSUBSCRIBE from rasterlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the >** message body to rasterlist-request(a)synthcom.com. Please direct other >** questions, comments, or problems to neil(a)synthcom.com.

1 0

Re: VECTOR: Fluke 9010A instructional Cd's??
by John Robertson 21 Dec '00

21 Dec '00

I have just found a new (well, old) Technical Data Application Information B0138 titled "How to use the 9010A for Guided Fault Isolation. This includes a bunch of programs for building your own test procedures and improves on the theory and practice of same. These look very useful! As soon as I am able to PDF these I'll send them along to uncle Al. John :-#)# To UNSUBSCRIBE from techtoolslist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the message body to: techtoolslist-request(a)flippers.com. Please direct other questions, comments, or problems to jrr(a)flippers.com.

1 0

RE: VECTOR: Fluke 9010/9020 question
by Evrovski, Andrew 15 Dec '00

15 Dec '00

1 0

RE: VECTOR: Fluke 9010/9020 question
by John Robertson 14 Dec '00

14 Dec '00

They show up on eBay quite often. I've been known to sell a few pods and parts myself...there are manuals and other info at http://www.spies.com/arcade and go to the manuals section. Fluke hasn't sold these for years... John :-#)# At 01:53 AM 12/16/00, Evrovski, Andrew wrote: >Folks, > > THis is puzzling... I hear lots about the 9010A, but cannot find > them. Does Fluke still sell these? I look on their website and cannot > find mention of it anywhere in the products list. Are there any > reasonable/better other vendor equivalents to this device? Info much > appreciated. > >Thanks >Andy > >-----Original Message----- >From: Ed Henciak [<mailto:eddie@telerama.com>mailto:eddie@telerama.com] >Sent: December 13, 2000 16:58 >To: vectorlist(a)synthcom.com >Subject: VECTOR: Fluke 9010/9020 question > >Hi all, > > I recently got a Fluke 9020A off Ebay and was owndering what the >differences between it and the 9010 were . I'm going to use this thing to >primarily fix Asteroids and other Atari vector baords. I do know they are >totally compatible. Thanks for any input! > >Ed > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >** To UNSUBSCRIBE from vectorlist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the >** message body to vectorlist-request(a)synthcom.com. Please direct other >** questions, comments, or problems to neil(a)synthcom.com.

1 0

Re: Pac repair using a chip comparitor
by Clay Cowgill 12 Dec '00

12 Dec '00

>I wasn't blaming the part for the fault of backwards insertion. My dismay >is that Clay's device is not repairable at all by anyone other than him. I've long ago accepted the fact that I can't please everyone, all the time. ;-) >What happens if Clay doesn't want to service the devices? This has already >happened in the case of the Multi Pacs. A little different situation there, but again I'd like to clarify something, Kev... I will happily replace the custom IC on the MultiPac with a swap for the damaged one and a $7 replacement charge. I've maybe done that once (I don't remember it, but it's probably happened). What I *won't* do is distribute any Namco code anymore. There are ROM images of the MultiPac on the net though. >Look at what great lengths people have gone to decrypt, dechipher & reverse >engineer arcade stuff now for the benefit of all. I can understand Clays >intention to protect his work but it negates my ability to repair it. Cracking code for MAME is one thing-- wrapping up a few grand in parts and PCB's and inventory (and having to operate as a business-- industrial insurance, income taxes, and licensing anyone?) is quite another. My kits are aiming to be easy to use and reliable. I can tell you that I have an EXTREMELY low return rate (well under 1% on the 284's/285's or any of the other kits for that matter), so I'm fairly confident that I'm succeeding. >I've had another unit of Clays fail, a Sync Buss Controller that I know what >not plugged in backwards. The only thing I could find was a stuck data line >but I don't understand how this could blow out the chip and I know it wasn't >a short to higher voltage as I troubleshoot with +5 only until the board is >up & running then finish the audio section, then do AC. I dunno, Kev... I've got a couple places that have bought hundreds of those boards over the years (literally) and I've never got *one* back from them. On the other hand I've had a couple people buy <10 and roast 2-3. Those instances have generally been attributed to "operator error" (don't plug DC modded boards into AC supplies, that sort of thing). You could cut the power line on the PCB and put a 4.7V zener in there or something in there to try to stop any spikes... Given the number that I've shipped over the last three years if there was a significant problem I think I'd be seeing the pattern by now. I doubt that people are roasting them at $15-20/ea and not complaining... (My website address and name is on every card, so I don't think it'd be hard for even 2nd or 3rd hand owners to find me.) >$7.00 is a reasonable price for a repair but if I have an option for an >equal replacement part that I can repair versus a part that I must ship out >for repair, the choice is clear. >To a non-solderer the Clay part & repair service is probably a good deal but >your are dependant on a soul source provider/servicer. >I'm happy to have an option now with Mark producing TTL style replacements & >if I get strap down holes in the next revision I'll be estatic. I'd definately stick with Mark's boards in your case, Kev. Some people will prefer smaller, lower power, solder-masked PCB's with a higher level of integration. Like you said, it's good to have options. This whole thread is a little irksome to me because it seems to give the impression that these things drop like flies when the simple fact of the matter is that they don't. It's very reminiscent of our technical support people at work-- all they hear is complaints about failed units all day, so they think that everything we build it crap. Well, in the same amount of time that they issued 100 returns for dead MP3 players, we had shipped 300,000. The overall defect rate is quite low. I sure wouldn't be selling the same design 3 years down the road if I was getting peppered with returns and complaints... -Clay

1 0

RE: Pac repair using a chip comparitor
by Dale Luck 12 Dec '00

12 Dec '00

It is a very difficult part of product design, and there are different philosophies regarding user mishandling. For parts that are nearly always soldered on to boards, you don't need much protection against improper insertion because machines will typically be putting them together, or engineers that really understand the consequences of putting a part in backwards are handling them. However, if the part is commonly stuck in a socket, attached, moved around, unattached, then some sort of protection or guide is many times used to prevent the accidental improper installation. For example - keyed connectors, or a simple fuse. A person designing test equipment that will be used by attaching to electronic devices also might want to consider the typical user of the equipment probably does not have a college degree, or might be in a hurry, or one of several other reasons where a simple accidental backwards plug in, or off by one pin might happen. So in the end if you can't design it so that it can't be plugged in wrong, (like a keyed connector), you might want to design to minimize the damage, and/or make the repair much more simpler if that happens, (like a fuse or a simple diode protection). My first job, getting out of college was with HP, and thats where I may have picked up most of that. Dale -----Original Message----- From: John Robertson [mailto:jrr@flippers.com] Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 1:23 PM To: TechToolsList(a)flippers.com; TechToolsList(a)flippers.com Subject: Re: Pac repair using a chip comparitor Are you using proper static handling techniques for these parts? They are static sensitive and sometimes people forget to ground themselves before plugging a part in. Heating season has started and that kills more boards...I know we usually manage to kill a board every year about now... The price of $7 is extremely reasonable to repair those devices. The fact that they are a programmed GPLA makes them very reliable and compact. I would much rather keep a spare or two of those on hand then try to service the older style boards. They take much too long to troubleshoot. And normally the repair procedure is to replace all the TTL. I bet Clay would sell the IC separately, but that might void the $7 repair warranty... John :-#)# At 09:57 PM 12/12/00, Kev wrote: >I wasn't blaming the part for the fault of backwards insertion. My dismay >is that Clay's device is not repairable at all by anyone other than him. > >What happens if Clay doesn't want to service the devices? This has already >happened in the case of the Multi Pacs. > >Look at what great lengths people have gone to decrypt, dechipher & reverse >engineer arcade stuff now for the benefit of all. I can understand Clays >intention to protect his work but it negates my ability to repair it. > >I've had another unit of Clays fail, a Sync Buss Controller that I know what >not plugged in backwards. The only thing I could find was a stuck data line >but I don't understand how this could blow out the chip and I know it wasn't >a short to higher voltage as I troubleshoot with +5 only until the board is >up & running then finish the audio section, then do AC. > >$7.00 is a reasonable price for a repair but if I have an option for an >equal replacement part that I can repair versus a part that I must ship out >for repair, the choice is clear. > >To a non-solderer the Clay part & repair service is probably a good deal but >your are dependant on a soul source provider/servicer. > >I'm happy to have an option now with Mark producing TTL style replacements & >if I get strap down holes in the next revision I'll be estatic. > > > I was guilty in my first month or so of servicing video games (back in the > > 70's) of plugging in a board while the power was on. This board had a > > 115VAC relay and, um, well..., it didn't survive the experience. This is > > back in the days when Pong was a big deal (B&W of course!) and the games > > sold for $4,000 (Yup, that's $4K Canadian, back then worth a bit MORE than > > the US$) so I had to spend a week replacing all the IC's (ALL!) to get it > > running again. > > > > Now, of course, I never plug a part in backwards. Really. > > > > "What Never?" > > > > "No Never!" > > > > "Well hardly ever..." (Gilbert & Sullivan) > > > > Clay is right, it is hard to blame the part for our screw-ups, BUT I >tried! > > (running for cover now ;-)... > > > > Happy Ho-Ho's! > > > > > > John :-#)# > > > > At 03:02 PM 12/12/00, Clay Cowgill wrote: > > >I do find this a little silly. EPROMs will die if you plug them in > > >backwards. PCB's will die if you reverse power and ground. This really > > >shouldn't be any big news to anyone on this list... ;-) I do have an > > >immediate solution that requires no modifications to the design though-- > > >Don't do that! > > > > > >I've sold lots of those 284's and 285's since 1998 and have had *maybe* a > > >quarter of a percent of the total come back for repair (for *any* >reason), > > >so I'm really not inclined to modify my PCB design or hand-add a diode to > > >every one. It's the 90:10 rule (or in this case the 99.75:0.25 rule :-). > > > > > >Kev's not quite right on one point though either-- they can be fixed just > > >fine. I just have to do it... They're $7 each plus shipping if you >smoke > > >one. > > > > > >(I must confess that this really is perplexing to me. I mean, c'mon-- at >my > > >"real job" if my engineering technician complained that some part dies >when > > >plugged in backwards you can be pretty sure I'm not going to be blaming >the > > >part!) > > > > > >-Clay > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >Date: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:06 AM > > >Subject: Re: Pac repair using a chip comparitor > > > > > > > > > >Mark's devices will die also if plugged in backwards...takes about an >hour > > > >or more to replace the IC's, same as the original...perhaps we could >ask > > > >both Mark and Clay to put in a 1N4005 diode across the Vcc and Ground >so IT > > > >shorts out if installed backwards and not the board...sort of a Silicon > > > >Suicide device... > > > > > > > >John :-#)# > > > > > > > >At 11:16 PM 12/11/00, Kev wrote: > > > >>http://users.erols.com/mowerman/bugtrap.htm > > > >> > > > >>pic & small write up of the Bugtrap. > > > >> > > > >>Word about Clay's most excellent products (Vram address or Sync bus), >plug > > > >>them in backwards & they die. There is no fixing these. Mark Spaeth > > > >>produces a replica of the original boards with TTL components that are > > > >>repairable. > > > >> > > > >>Personally I'm not too impressed with the Fluke 90 thingy, but maybe I > > > >>haven't spent enough time with it yet. > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE from techtoolslist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in >the > > message body to: techtoolslist-request(a)flippers.com. Please direct other > > questions, comments, or problems to jrr(a)flippers.com. > >

1 0

Re: Pac repair using a chip comparitor
by John Robertson 12 Dec '00

12 Dec '00

I was guilty in my first month or so of servicing video games (back in the 70's) of plugging in a board while the power was on. This board had a 115VAC relay and, um, well..., it didn't survive the experience. This is back in the days when Pong was a big deal (B&W of course!) and the games sold for $4,000 (Yup, that's $4K Canadian, back then worth a bit MORE than the US$) so I had to spend a week replacing all the IC's (ALL!) to get it running again. Now, of course, I never plug a part in backwards. Really. "What Never?" "No Never!" "Well hardly ever..." (Gilbert & Sullivan) Clay is right, it is hard to blame the part for our screw-ups, BUT I tried! (running for cover now ;-)... Happy Ho-Ho's! John :-#)# At 03:02 PM 12/12/00, Clay Cowgill wrote: >I do find this a little silly. EPROMs will die if you plug them in >backwards. PCB's will die if you reverse power and ground. This really >shouldn't be any big news to anyone on this list... ;-) I do have an >immediate solution that requires no modifications to the design though-- >Don't do that! > >I've sold lots of those 284's and 285's since 1998 and have had *maybe* a >quarter of a percent of the total come back for repair (for *any* reason), >so I'm really not inclined to modify my PCB design or hand-add a diode to >every one. It's the 90:10 rule (or in this case the 99.75:0.25 rule :-). > >Kev's not quite right on one point though either-- they can be fixed just >fine. I just have to do it... They're $7 each plus shipping if you smoke >one. > >(I must confess that this really is perplexing to me. I mean, c'mon-- at my >"real job" if my engineering technician complained that some part dies when >plugged in backwards you can be pretty sure I'm not going to be blaming the >part!) > >-Clay > >-----Original Message----- >Date: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:06 AM >Subject: Re: Pac repair using a chip comparitor > > > >Mark's devices will die also if plugged in backwards...takes about an hour > >or more to replace the IC's, same as the original...perhaps we could ask > >both Mark and Clay to put in a 1N4005 diode across the Vcc and Ground so IT > >shorts out if installed backwards and not the board...sort of a Silicon > >Suicide device... > > > >John :-#)# > > > >At 11:16 PM 12/11/00, Kev wrote: > >>http://users.erols.com/mowerman/bugtrap.htm > >> > >>pic & small write up of the Bugtrap. > >> > >>Word about Clay's most excellent products (Vram address or Sync bus), plug > >>them in backwards & they die. There is no fixing these. Mark Spaeth > >>produces a replica of the original boards with TTL components that are > >>repairable. > >> > >>Personally I'm not too impressed with the Fluke 90 thingy, but maybe I > >>haven't spent enough time with it yet. To UNSUBSCRIBE from techtoolslist, send a message with "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the message body to: techtoolslist-request(a)flippers.com. Please direct other questions, comments, or problems to jrr(a)flippers.com.

2 2

Re: Pac repair using a chip comparitor
by Clay Cowgill 12 Dec '00

12 Dec '00

I do find this a little silly. EPROMs will die if you plug them in backwards. PCB's will die if you reverse power and ground. This really shouldn't be any big news to anyone on this list... ;-) I do have an immediate solution that requires no modifications to the design though-- Don't do that! I've sold lots of those 284's and 285's since 1998 and have had *maybe* a quarter of a percent of the total come back for repair (for *any* reason), so I'm really not inclined to modify my PCB design or hand-add a diode to every one. It's the 90:10 rule (or in this case the 99.75:0.25 rule :-). Kev's not quite right on one point though either-- they can be fixed just fine. I just have to do it... They're $7 each plus shipping if you smoke one. (I must confess that this really is perplexing to me. I mean, c'mon-- at my "real job" if my engineering technician complained that some part dies when plugged in backwards you can be pretty sure I'm not going to be blaming the part!) -Clay -----Original Message----- Date: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:06 AM Subject: Re: Pac repair using a chip comparitor >Mark's devices will die also if plugged in backwards...takes about an hour >or more to replace the IC's, same as the original...perhaps we could ask >both Mark and Clay to put in a 1N4005 diode across the Vcc and Ground so IT >shorts out if installed backwards and not the board...sort of a Silicon >Suicide device... > >John :-#)# > >At 11:16 PM 12/11/00, Kev wrote: >>http://users.erols.com/mowerman/bugtrap.htm >> >>pic & small write up of the Bugtrap. >> >>Word about Clay's most excellent products (Vram address or Sync bus), plug >>them in backwards & they die. There is no fixing these. Mark Spaeth >>produces a replica of the original boards with TTL components that are >>repairable. >> >>Personally I'm not too impressed with the Fluke 90 thingy, but maybe I >>haven't spent enough time with it yet.

1 0