- TechToolsList - listserv.classicarcade.com

Duplicate messages from the list....
by John Robertson 24 Jun '02

24 Jun '02

It appears that the list is still a bit broken, in that when you REPLY to the list you might also be replying to the originator of the message as well, thus he gets two copies of the message. Please check the "To:" field and clear out anything but the techtoolslist address... Thanks! I'm trying to get this fixed but the host is taking a bit of time upgrading the list software. John :-#)#

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Re: Copying ROMS ?
by Mike Davis 22 Jun '02

22 Jun '02

Yes, I said I did a hard reset. Control @ and entered the new time,etc and pressed ENTER and verified that all my programs were gone. But, even with no BASIC ROMs in the HX-20, it still gives me the BASIC and Monitor options AND I can select either one. I even entered a BASIC program and executed it (all without the BASIC ROMs installed) Wierd! > When you did the reset, did you do ALL of the reset? I take it you > pressed the reset button, but then to reinitialize the memory you have > to press "control @" while in the menu. You then enter time and date > and all RAM gets wiped and ROM reloaded. > > > Mike Davis wrote: > > > > Nope! No manufacturers mark. Only the numbers given beow and a date > > code like A27 119. > > > > But like I said, I have two HX-20. One has the BASIC ROMs, the > > other has 27C64 EPROMs. I just can't read the BASIC ROMs into my > > Data I/O PROM Programmer. Not sure of family/pin code. I have > > tried all of the 8K codes, with no luck. > > > > I also tried swapping them (not sway :-) but there appears to be > > something else at play here that I'm not familar with. When I pull > > all of the BASIC ROMs, the system still runs BASIC (with no ROMs at > > all). Only way I can see this is if there was some code pulled from > > ROM and resident in the HX-20. Epson did this with the PX-8 but > > there is no mention in the manual and I can't force a reload. > > > > I'm asking some HX-20 experts but have not heard back yet. > > > > > Is there a manufacturers mark on these ROMs? Is it possible they > > > are Motorola? Motorola had some ideas about Eprom/Rom > > > compatibility that wasn't shared by Intel and others and > > > Motorolas' design did not catch on. Motorola was (it seems) more > > > aligned with TI in those days (both from Texas?) and were also > > > making 2564's that have a different select pinout than 2764s. Do > > > the 2764 Eproms work in the board that has these mystery ROMs? > > > > > > On another note, I hope it isn't too hot where you are - you > > > mention swaying the ROMs and I'd hate to think you were succumbing > > > to the weather... ;-) Heatstroke? (going back into hiding...) > > > > > > John:-#)# > > > > > > At 08:12 AM 22/06/2002 -0700, Mike Davis wrote: > > > > > > > > > >Like I said below: > > > >EPSON BASIC1R0 M64020AA > > > >EPSON BASIC1R0 M64021AA > > > >EPSON BASIC1R0 M64022AA > > > >EPSON BASIC1R0 M64023AA > > > > > > > >The other writing is simply date code information. > > > > > > > >The thing is, like I have said, I have a 2nd HX-20 that has > > > >27C64s installed. So, I was going to copy the BASIC to 27c64s > > > >and use in the 2nd unit to have a BASIC machine. > > > > > > > >Someone suggested that the masked ROMs might have some sort of > > > >special non-standard select method within the ROMs. But if that > > > >was the case, the 27C64 wouldn't work, unless there was some > > > >difference in the board (No PALs on this board). I'm going to > > > >disassemble it today and see if the 2nd unit has some rewired > > > >ROMs. > > > > > > > >But, I have a 2nd problem that I'm trying to work off of this > > > >board. I pulled the BASIC ROMs from the 1st unit and performed a > > > >hard reset, clearing RAM. Still ran BASIC and the monitor > > > >program that were supposed to be in ROM (ROMs were completely out > > > >of the system). > > > > > > > >I was going to simply sway ROMS and see if they worked in the > > > >other system but for some reason, the systems behave the same, > > > >regardless of which set of ROMs is in either machine. > > > > > > > >I thought perhaps the program is loaded into resident memory but > > > >the manuals don't mention this and I don't know how to force a > > > >reload. I know their other machine, PX-8, behaved this way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there any common numbering on the masked parts that might > > > > > give a clue as to what they REALLY are? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike Davis wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > That was the first thing I tried. It read in all blank. > > > > > > That is the problem that I'm trying to resolve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If 2764s are known to work just read the ROMs as 2764s. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike Davis wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have verified that I can read and write other 27c64s > > > > > > > > and I also tried swapping ROMS however there is another > > > > > > > > small glitch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apparently the HX-20 runs the programs out of RAM. I > > > > > > > > guess it loads from PROM and runs from RAM. I removed > > > > > > > > all of the BASIC ROMs and performed a hard reset and > > > > > > > > when it comes back, it's still running BASIC, without > > > > > > > > the BASIC ROMs even installed. Wierd! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have looked through the manuals to try and find a way > > > > > > > > to force a reload but no go (so far). I might try > > > > > > > > removing the internal batteries and see what happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The manual also mentions that one can use 27C64s in the > > > > > > > > HX-20. There may also be one other thing that is causing > > > > > > > > the problem. I am trying to read the ROMS using > > > > > > > > family/pin codes for other ROMS. I don't find that part > > > > > > > > number and have tried a number of other 8K ROM fam/pin > > > > > > > > codes and none give me anything but blank loads. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps that is part of the problem? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Verify that you can read another 2764 (incase you have > > > > > > > > > reader problems). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you swap the 2764 for the Masked ROMs & work > > > > > > > > > without changing jumpers/settings/wiring? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see there are a few HX-20 collectors on the net, > > > > > > > > > they may be more informed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kev > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I understand what you are saying. I'm sure > > > > > > > > > > they are Masked ROMS or at least that would make > > > > > > > > > > sense. They are a 4 chip chipset with numbers: > > > > > > > > > > EPSON BASIC1R0 M64020AA to M65023AA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is however, that in identical machines, > > > > > > > > > > the other EPROMS are 27C64 so the pinout would seem > > > > > > > > > > to have to be the same or the EPROMS would not work > > > > > > > > > > right in the other identical machines, would they? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

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Re: Copying ROMS ?
by Mike Davis 22 Jun '02

22 Jun '02

Like I said below: EPSON BASIC1R0 M64020AA EPSON BASIC1R0 M64021AA EPSON BASIC1R0 M64022AA EPSON BASIC1R0 M64023AA The other writing is simply date code information. The thing is, like I have said, I have a 2nd HX-20 that has 27C64s installed. So, I was going to copy the BASIC to 27c64s and use in the 2nd unit to have a BASIC machine. Someone suggested that the masked ROMs might have some sort of special non-standard select method within the ROMs. But if that was the case, the 27C64 wouldn't work, unless there was some difference in the board (No PALs on this board). I'm going to disassemble it today and see if the 2nd unit has some rewired ROMs. But, I have a 2nd problem that I'm trying to work off of this board. I pulled the BASIC ROMs from the 1st unit and performed a hard reset, clearing RAM. Still ran BASIC and the monitor program that were supposed to be in ROM (ROMs were completely out of the system). I was going to simply sway ROMS and see if they worked in the other system but for some reason, the systems behave the same, regardless of which set of ROMs is in either machine. I thought perhaps the program is loaded into resident memory but the manuals don't mention this and I don't know how to force a reload. I know their other machine, PX-8, behaved this way. > Is there any common numbering on the masked parts that might give a > clue as to what they REALLY are? > > > Mike Davis wrote: > > > > That was the first thing I tried. It read in all blank. That is > > the problem that I'm trying to resolve. > > > > > If 2764s are known to work just read the ROMs as 2764s. > > > > > > > > > Mike Davis wrote: > > > > > > > > I have verified that I can read and write other 27c64s and I > > > > also tried swapping ROMS however there is another small glitch. > > > > > > > > Apparently the HX-20 runs the programs out of RAM. I guess it > > > > loads from PROM and runs from RAM. I removed all of the BASIC > > > > ROMs and performed a hard reset and when it comes back, it's > > > > still running BASIC, without the BASIC ROMs even installed. > > > > Wierd! > > > > > > > > I have looked through the manuals to try and find a way to force > > > > a reload but no go (so far). I might try removing the internal > > > > batteries and see what happens. > > > > > > > > The manual also mentions that one can use 27C64s in the HX-20. > > > > There may also be one other thing that is causing the problem. > > > > I am trying to read the ROMS using family/pin codes for other > > > > ROMS. I don't find that part number and have tried a number of > > > > other 8K ROM fam/pin codes and none give me anything but blank > > > > loads. > > > > > > > > Perhaps that is part of the problem? > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Verify that you can read another 2764 (incase you have reader > > > > > problems). > > > > > > > > > > Can you swap the 2764 for the Masked ROMs & work without > > > > > changing jumpers/settings/wiring? > > > > > > > > > > I see there are a few HX-20 collectors on the net, they may be > > > > > more informed. > > > > > > > > > > Kev > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I understand what you are saying. I'm sure they are > > > > > > Masked ROMS or at least that would make sense. They are a 4 > > > > > > chip chipset with numbers: EPSON BASIC1R0 M64020AA to > > > > > > M65023AA. > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is however, that in identical machines, the other > > > > > > EPROMS are 27C64 so the pinout would seem to have to be the > > > > > > same or the EPROMS would not work right in the other > > > > > > identical machines, would they? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

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Re: Copying ROMS ?
by John Robertson 22 Jun '02

22 Jun '02

Motorola MCM68369/68370 has four select lines - Pins 20, 22, 26, & 27 are all factory set (H/L) chip selects on this Mask ROM (8192 X 8). John:-#)# At 08:12 AM 22/06/2002 -0700, Mike Davis wrote: >Like I said below: >EPSON BASIC1R0 M64020AA >EPSON BASIC1R0 M64021AA >EPSON BASIC1R0 M64022AA >EPSON BASIC1R0 M64023AA > >The other writing is simply date code information. > >The thing is, like I have said, I have a 2nd HX-20 that has 27C64s >installed. So, I was going to copy the BASIC to 27c64s and use in >the 2nd unit to have a BASIC machine. > >Someone suggested that the masked ROMs might have some sort of >special non-standard select method within the ROMs. But if that was >the case, the 27C64 wouldn't work, unless there was some difference >in the board (No PALs on this board). I'm going to disassemble it >today and see if the 2nd unit has some rewired ROMs. > >But, I have a 2nd problem that I'm trying to work off of this board. >I pulled the BASIC ROMs from the 1st unit and performed a hard reset, >clearing RAM. Still ran BASIC and the monitor program that were >supposed to be in ROM (ROMs were completely out of the system). > >I was going to simply sway ROMS and see if they worked in the other >system but for some reason, the systems behave the same, regardless >of which set of ROMs is in either machine. > >I thought perhaps the program is loaded into resident memory but the >manuals don't mention this and I don't know how to force a reload. I >know their other machine, PX-8, behaved this way. > > > > Is there any common numbering on the masked parts that might give a > > clue as to what they REALLY are? > > > > > > Mike Davis wrote: > > > > > > That was the first thing I tried. It read in all blank. That is > > > the problem that I'm trying to resolve. > > > > > > > If 2764s are known to work just read the ROMs as 2764s. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike Davis wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have verified that I can read and write other 27c64s and I > > > > > also tried swapping ROMS however there is another small glitch. > > > > > > > > > > Apparently the HX-20 runs the programs out of RAM. I guess it > > > > > loads from PROM and runs from RAM. I removed all of the BASIC > > > > > ROMs and performed a hard reset and when it comes back, it's > > > > > still running BASIC, without the BASIC ROMs even installed. > > > > > Wierd! > > > > > > > > > > I have looked through the manuals to try and find a way to force > > > > > a reload but no go (so far). I might try removing the internal > > > > > batteries and see what happens. > > > > > > > > > > The manual also mentions that one can use 27C64s in the HX-20. > > > > > There may also be one other thing that is causing the problem. > > > > > I am trying to read the ROMS using family/pin codes for other > > > > > ROMS. I don't find that part number and have tried a number of > > > > > other 8K ROM fam/pin codes and none give me anything but blank > > > > > loads. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps that is part of the problem? > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Verify that you can read another 2764 (incase you have reader > > > > > > problems). > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you swap the 2764 for the Masked ROMs & work without > > > > > > changing jumpers/settings/wiring? > > > > > > > > > > > > I see there are a few HX-20 collectors on the net, they may be > > > > > > more informed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kev > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I understand what you are saying. I'm sure they are > > > > > > > Masked ROMS or at least that would make sense. They are a 4 > > > > > > > chip chipset with numbers: EPSON BASIC1R0 M64020AA to > > > > > > > M65023AA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thing is however, that in identical machines, the other > > > > > > > EPROMS are 27C64 so the pinout would seem to have to be the > > > > > > > same or the EPROMS would not work right in the other > > > > > > > identical machines, would they? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

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Re: Copying ROMS ?
by Mike Davis 21 Jun '02

21 Jun '02

Someone else pointed that out. I have replied to the list with the ROM part numbers. But I have two identical machines. In one, I have these ROMs, in the other, I have 27C64s. Wouldn't that suggest that they are identical pinouts? Mike > > I seriously doubt vintage ROMS are copy protected! > > What is the ROM (EPROM) type you are using and what are they marked > as? > > You might have a custom masked rom with inverted chip select or such. > > Kev > > > > > > I have several vintage computers (Epson HX-20). A couple of these > > have been customized and have had the BASIC ROMS removed and some > > other ROMS installed. > > > > I'd like to go back to the original BASIC machines. I do have one > > original HX-20 that has the BASIC ROMs. But when I tried to copy > > the ROMS into my Data I/O Model 22, only FF shows up. I presume > > these ROMs are protected somehow. > > > > However, they function and must function in use, so the data should > > be recoverable. > > > > Anyone have any suggestions on how to make copies of these old BASIC > > ROMs? > > > > Thanks, > > Mike > > > > >

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Re: Copying ROMS ?
by Mike Davis 21 Jun '02

21 Jun '02

I think I understand what you are saying. I'm sure they are Masked ROMS or at least that would make sense. They are a 4 chip chipset with numbers: EPSON BASIC1R0 M64020AA to M65023AA. The thing is however, that in identical machines, the other EPROMS are 27C64 so the pinout would seem to have to be the same or the EPROMS would not work right in the other identical machines, would they? Mike > If they are masked ROMs (like Bally used in their pinball machines) > they may have their chip enable lines defined differently from an > EPROM. > > It is unlikely they have any protection. > > > Mike Davis wrote: > > > > I have several vintage computers (Epson HX-20). A couple of these > > have been customized and have had the BASIC ROMS removed and some > > other ROMS installed. > > > > I'd like to go back to the original BASIC machines. I do have one > > original HX-20 that has the BASIC ROMs. But when I tried to copy > > the ROMS into my Data I/O Model 22, only FF shows up. I presume > > these ROMs are protected somehow. > > > > However, they function and must function in use, so the data should > > be recoverable. > > > > Anyone have any suggestions on how to make copies of these old BASIC > > ROMs? > > > > Thanks, > > Mike > >

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Copying ROMS ?
by Mike Davis 21 Jun '02

21 Jun '02

I have several vintage computers (Epson HX-20). A couple of these have been customized and have had the BASIC ROMS removed and some other ROMS installed. I'd like to go back to the original BASIC machines. I do have one original HX-20 that has the BASIC ROMs. But when I tried to copy the ROMS into my Data I/O Model 22, only FF shows up. I presume these ROMs are protected somehow. However, they function and must function in use, so the data should be recoverable. Anyone have any suggestions on how to make copies of these old BASIC ROMs? Thanks, Mike

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Re: Comfortable work bench seat? (fwd)
by Kurt Mahan 21 Jun '02

21 Jun '02

Well, I'll point out that the Aeron by Hermann Miller is really comfortable. And yes, I got it really cheap on a close out from the Salt Lake Olympics.. It holds up pretty well. Luckily I used to work with someone that sells these chairs (we were olympic mascots) so if there are problems I can get the replacement parts cheap. That is something nice about these chairs -- unlike the stuff I've bought at various warehouse clubs and office supply stores, these chairs are intended to be servicable. And for more then the model year that they were produced in. Novel concept. Anyway, if you can get the chair cheap I'd suggest it. Otherwise, well, I always make sure to have a fairly comfortable chair for those long hours spent at the bench working on boards.. One less distraction as the board is doing its best to piss you off. Kurt > From: John Robertson <jrr(a)flippers.com> > > I just get a secretaries chair from Office Depot. Be SURE to find one with > decent bum padding...I got their cheapest, and one's but can get sore in an > hour on that sucker...no armrests, they just get in the way. > > John :-#)# > > At 02:36 PM 19/06/2002 -0400, Kev wrote: > > > >Okay so I hurt my back the otherday again (using a wheelbarrow....) and it > >pointed out how pathetic my work bench chair is (hijacked dinning room > >chair). > > > >So I'm looking for suggestions/ preferences. > > > >Ideally something that swivels is good. Rolling isn't a must or necessarily > >desirable (carpeted floor). Back support & a comfortable seat are high > >priority. > > > >Thanks, > >Kev

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Fluke 9010As
by John Robertson 21 Jun '02

21 Jun '02

I have a collection of these that I am considering fixing up for sale/trade. The question is, would they be more useful to folks if the tape drive was aligned and fully functional (assuming no RS-232 port). I am open to offers on these bases, they will all be fully tested - keyboards, displays, and pod/probe ports as well. Please respond via email if interested. For trades see my posting on the Arium...or I'd like to get an Atari Superman/Hercules MPU/I-O test fixture... Thanks! John :-#)#

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Arium stuff
by John Robertson 21 Jun '02

21 Jun '02

Anyone else here playing with Ariums? I have a spare ML4100 that is working, but no pods (well maybe I could be talked out of one), plus I have two pods for a later Arium: One is the 100Mgz logic pod LP-4050, and the other is an adapter (AD-4100) to use ML4100 pods with the later (SC-4400) harness. I'm looking for trades - I want the Arium option board that allows one to have 4,000 extra bits of storage plus the EEROM configuration storage. Otherwise I'd love to find an Arium ML-4400 which I think uses these pods...then I'd trade off my ML-4100s John :-#)#

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