January 2000 - TechToolsList - listserv.classicarcade.com

Re: Signature Analyzers
by Mark Shostak 14 Jan '00

14 Jan '00

---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Peter Fyfe" <peter(a)bombjack.freeserve.co.uk> >Dear all, > >I'm obviously in the minority here. My signatures don't match the >Atari guides using the CAT box. Sounds like a the problem with your NOP card. Either the one I mentioned in my other post, or some other problem. Is the "unstable signature" led lit or flashing when you take your measurements? I seem to recall seeing incorrect signatures when I used the NOP method. >Granted, i get the same signatures for the mathbox on the vector >games but for the rest of the board i get completely different >signatures. This also points to your NOP card, because the mathbox doesn't use any signals from the NOP card when in SA mode. <snip> > >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris Loggans <chris.loggans(a)deltasolutions.com> >To: 'TechToolsList(a)flippers.com' <TechToolsList(a)flippers.com> >Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 4:39 PM >Subject: RE: Signature Analyzers > > >>Every time I've used my HP 5006, the signatures have matched the Atari >>documentation. >> >>-Chris >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jon Raiford >>To: TechToolsList(a)flippers.com >>Sent: 1/14/00 11:27 AM >>Subject: Re: Signature Analyzers >> >>Ok, thanks. I guess it really is the right one to go after. Is it true >>that the it reports the same signature as a cat box? I've heard two >>different stories, so I wasn't sure what to believe :) >> >>Thanks again >> >>Jon >> >>At 08:20 AM 01/14/2000 -0800, you wrote: >>>As far as I know - any signature analyzer should do fine. The HP 5004A >>>has the most documentation available online as far as troubleshooting >>>video game boards. >>> >>>I bought the HP 5004a for $100 although you may see it for slightly >>less >>>on ebay. I got mine simply because most of the documentation on using >>the >>>Cinematronics exorsizor mentions this particular model. >>> >>>Just my 2 cents. >>> >>> >>>Matt >>> >>> >>>_____________________________________________________________________ >>> >>>On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Jon Raiford wrote: >>> >>> > I have decided that I should get a Sig. Analyzer. What is the one >>to >>> > get? I keep seeing people talk about the HP 5004A, is that was I >>> > should be targeting? I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death >>> > already, I just now finally joined this list. Also, what should I >>> > expect to pay for one? >>> > >>> > Thanks, Jon >>> > >>> > >> >> > >

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Re: Signature Analyzers
by Mark Shostak 14 Jan '00

14 Jan '00

From: Matt Rossiter - Verio Southern California <matt(a)rossiters.com> >I may have asked this before on Vectorlist, but how exactly do you >generate the proper signatures on Atari boards without the CAT >box? Do you hardwire the data lines on the CPU to something specific? It depends what you want to fix. Most Atari boards have two "sides", the front end (CPU/ROM/RAM/GLUE) and the "video" section. For the "video" section, the manual tells you where to connect the str/stp/clk lines and how to put the board in SA mode. For the front end, you need at least one more piece. Either: 1) A CAT box 2) An HP CPU test jig 3) A NOOP CPU jig 4) A home made test jig Most people don't have a CAT and/or don't want to pay $500 for one. I have yet to see a real HP test jig. I found the NOOP to have an unstable clock and I never hooked the logic analyzer up to it to find out why, although I thought about it. So finally, I made a test jig that plugs into the CPU socket and generates the correct signals (with a clean clock) to do SA. However, there are better ways to trouble shoot a uP system in the '00s and not all of the reasons for using SA are still valid. Back in the '70s and early '80s, SA was a good because: 1) EPROM programers were expensive and rare 2) We didn't have a checksum reference 3) We didn't have ROM images for all the ROMs of all the games on a PC in front of us 4) RAM testers were rare and expensive SA was handy because it allowed you test a game ROM *WITHOUT* requiring any of that hardware. All you had to do was read the sig on each pin of the ROM and you knew if it was working. SA also allowed you to easily test RAM without additional h/w. Today, I find it much quicker to just pull the ROM out, read it, verify the checksum and even the image, than to set up the SA and read each pin on each ROM. For the glue and RAM, I use the fluke. But... For the "video" generator, you can't beat SA. It is definitely the easiest and fastest way to go. Best of all, no additional hardware (noop cpu, etc) is required. > >Where do the stop/start/clock wires go? > Where the manual says to connect them. > >Just curious. > > >Matt > > > >_____________________________________________________________________ > >On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Mark Shostak wrote: > >> > Is it true that the it reports the same signature as a cat box? >> >> Yes, the HP reports the same signatures as the CAT box. >> >> However, the HP is a lot nicer to use. I have both and for SA >> I use the HP over the CAT. It has better probes, a bigger display, >> it's like a bench meter in that you can read it while your working, >> on the CAT, the display is oriented up, towards the ceiling, >> so you can't just glance over at it to read the sig. >> >> -Mark >> >> > >

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Re: Signature Analyzers
by Peter Fyfe 14 Jan '00

14 Jan '00

Matt, You need to hardwire the NOP code onto the data lines. The Start/Stop both go to the highest address line (pin 25 on the 6502) the Clk basically goes to the clock to the processor. I like to use the test point on the board for the clock as this ensures that the buffer for the clock is operational. There should be some NOP card info on spies, try under the HP signature analysis section. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Matt Rossiter - Verio Southern California <matt(a)rossiters.com> To: Mark Shostak <shostak(a)directlink.net> Cc: TechToolsList(a)flippers.com <TechToolsList(a)flippers.com> Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 9:53 PM Subject: Re: Signature Analyzers >I may have asked this before on Vectorlist, but how exactly do you >generate the proper signatures on Atari boards without the CAT >box? Do you hardwire the data lines on the CPU to something specific? > >Where do the stop/start/clock wires go? > > >Just curious. > > >Matt > > > >_____________________________________________________________________ > >On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Mark Shostak wrote: > >> > Is it true that the it reports the same signature as a cat box? >> >> Yes, the HP reports the same signatures as the CAT box. >> >> However, the HP is a lot nicer to use. I have both and for SA >> I use the HP over the CAT. It has better probes, a bigger display, >> it's like a bench meter in that you can read it while your working, >> on the CAT, the display is oriented up, towards the ceiling, >> so you can't just glance over at it to read the sig. >> >> -Mark >> >> > >

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Re: Signature Analyzers
by Peter Fyfe 14 Jan '00

14 Jan '00

Dear all, I'm obviously in the minority here. My signatures don't match the Atari guides using the CAT box. Granted, i get the same signatures for the mathbox on the vector games but for the rest of the board i get completely different signatures. I've already knocked up a couple of my guides. Could someone volunteer to try them out for me. It probably shouldn't take more than 30 minutes per board. Jess has kindly offered to host them on his site so i'd like someone just to give them the once over. The guides are based on the Atari guides but i used an HP5004A and my handmade NOP card. If anyone can help me out then i'd appreciate it. Thanks Peter -----Original Message----- From: Chris Loggans <chris.loggans(a)deltasolutions.com> To: 'TechToolsList(a)flippers.com' <TechToolsList(a)flippers.com> Date: Friday, January 14, 2000 4:39 PM Subject: RE: Signature Analyzers >Every time I've used my HP 5006, the signatures have matched the Atari >documentation. > >-Chris > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jon Raiford >To: TechToolsList(a)flippers.com >Sent: 1/14/00 11:27 AM >Subject: Re: Signature Analyzers > >Ok, thanks. I guess it really is the right one to go after. Is it true >that the it reports the same signature as a cat box? I've heard two >different stories, so I wasn't sure what to believe :) > >Thanks again > >Jon > >At 08:20 AM 01/14/2000 -0800, you wrote: >>As far as I know - any signature analyzer should do fine. The HP 5004A >>has the most documentation available online as far as troubleshooting >>video game boards. >> >>I bought the HP 5004a for $100 although you may see it for slightly >less >>on ebay. I got mine simply because most of the documentation on using >the >>Cinematronics exorsizor mentions this particular model. >> >>Just my 2 cents. >> >> >>Matt >> >> >>_____________________________________________________________________ >> >>On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Jon Raiford wrote: >> >> > I have decided that I should get a Sig. Analyzer. What is the one >to >> > get? I keep seeing people talk about the HP 5004A, is that was I >> > should be targeting? I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death >> > already, I just now finally joined this list. Also, what should I >> > expect to pay for one? >> > >> > Thanks, Jon >> > >> > > >

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Re: Signature Analyzers
by Mark Shostak 14 Jan '00

14 Jan '00

> Is it true that the it reports the same signature as a cat box? Yes, the HP reports the same signatures as the CAT box. However, the HP is a lot nicer to use. I have both and for SA I use the HP over the CAT. It has better probes, a bigger display, it's like a bench meter in that you can read it while your working, on the CAT, the display is oriented up, towards the ceiling, so you can't just glance over at it to read the sig. -Mark

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Fluke 9010
by Chris Loggans 14 Jan '00

14 Jan '00

Since I already have one, I thought I'd offer this one up here. I came across another Fluke 9010 the other day and wondered if anyone here was interested. This one is complete with the hard to find probe and even includes some tapes, manuals and a custom Fluke hardshell case to carry it in. The only thing that it doesn't have is the serial port option. If anyone is interested, I'm open to offers. (cash or video game parts) Thanks, -Chris

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RE: Signature Analyzers
by James Marous 14 Jan '00

14 Jan '00

For some dumb reason I have several of them, I have the HP 5004 and 5006, a bug trap sig analyzer and a Kurz Kasch model. All are basically about the same, at least as much as I use them. Honestly, I find I seldom use signature analysis. About the only time it really comes in handy is working on vector mathboxes. But it's nice to have it for well documented projects, like the cinematronics boards. James -----Original Message----- From: Jon Raiford [mailto:raiford@mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 11:10 AM To: Tech Tools List Subject: Signature Analyzers I have decided that I should get a Sig. Analyzer. What is the one to get? I keep seeing people talk about the HP 5004A, is that was I should be targeting? I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death already, I just now finally joined this list. Also, what should I expect to pay for one? Thanks, Jon

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Re: Fluke 9010
by Mark Shostak 14 Jan '00

14 Jan '00

From: "ayeckley" <ayeckley(a)neo.rr.com> >>What would it take to ad a serial port? > > >Well, since I traded the one I had with the serial >interface (JM!) I'd also like to have this feature. > >Anyone ever disassemble one to find out what it's >got? 8250 I'd guess - different firmware too ? It's not an ACE (8250), it's older. I seem to recall it's in a 24 pin pkg. It's on a pretty small board (a few inches sq). If anyone's really interested in them, I have the schematics for it lying around. -Mark

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Re: Fluke 9010
by ayeckley 14 Jan '00

14 Jan '00

>What would it take to ad a serial port? Well, since I traded the one I had with the serial interface (JM!) I'd also like to have this feature. Anyone ever disassemble one to find out what it's got? 8250 I'd guess - different firmware too ? Alex http://home.neo.lrun.com/ayeckle/ ayeckley(a)neo.lrun.com (Play) yecklea(a)diebold.com (Work)

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Signature Analyzers
by Jon Raiford 14 Jan '00

14 Jan '00

I have decided that I should get a Sig. Analyzer. What is the one to get? I keep seeing people talk about the HP 5004A, is that was I should be targeting? I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death already, I just now finally joined this list. Also, what should I expect to pay for one? Thanks, Jon

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