May 2002 - TechToolsList - listserv.classicarcade.com

Re: Let's be friends
by John Robertson 10 May '02

10 May '02

That damn KLEZ worm is getting around a lot these days. I use two scanners concurrently in my computer to keep an eye on things... F-Prot (http://www.europe.f-secure.com/anti-virus/webclub/) and AVG (http://www.grisoft.com) John :-#(# At 09:13 AM 10/05/2002 -0400, Paul.Tonizzo(a)sybase.com wrote: >This was a virus, BTW. > >----- Forwarded by Paul Tonizzo/SYBASE on 05/10/2002 09:12 AM ----- > > > Greg > Baumgratz > > <gbaumgratz(a)itctelecomm.co To: jrr > <jrr(a)flippers.com> > m> cc: > techtoolslist(a)flippers.com > Sent by: Subject: Re: > Let's be friends > owner-techtoolslist(a)www.fl > > ippers.com > > > > > > 05/10/2002 08:51 > AM > > > > > > > > >Fine - just don't take my candy..... > > > > >jrr wrote: --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 07/05/2002

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9010A ROM Dump utilityRe: 9100 Keyboards (again...)
by Kev 10 May '02

10 May '02

I uploaded a little utility to the FTP. I called it the Dumper. Basically it is the ROM dump program from the 9010A programmers manual plus a ASCII text file to binary convertor utility provided by Zonn Moore (2 versions DOS 16 bit & Windows 32 bit). This can be used with the 9010A & a RS-232 module & a PC running a terminal program (with the ability to save text files) to dump onboard roms & convert them to binary ROM files. Something I had been needing for awhile & Zonn volunteered to help with the conversion utility. (Thanks Zonn!) Hopefully those that use it will donate the ROMs. Enjoy, Kev

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Re: 9100 Keyboards (again...)
by Kev 10 May '02

10 May '02

There is a layout of the Fluke 9100 keyboard on page 26 of 422 in the 9100 Programmer.pdf manual on John's FTP site. It will be interesting to see how other keyboards will map over. Thanks, Kev

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Re: 9100 Keyboards (again...)
by Kev 10 May '02

10 May '02

There are actually 2 version of monitor cards, Monochrome & Color. Does anyone actually have a color card? As far as my looking thru the available PDF manuals for the 9100 there is no Keyboard layout sheet or any reference that I can cross refence for the "nonstandard" keys. The EDIT key is on the operator Keyboard as opposed to the Programmer keyboard. Thanks, Kev > >Yes, but the big issue here is the video card. The >video card is only present as part of the programmers >option. Without the video card, the editor will not >work. > >Thanks, >-Chris

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Re: 9100 Keyboards (again...)
by John Robertson 10 May '02

10 May '02

The monitor is just a standard RGB, right? So that is easy at least...does the editor reside in the keyboard CPU ROM? Or is it a keyboard code that awakens the editor in the base unit? John :-#)# At 02:47 PM 09/05/2002 -0400, Corey Stup wrote: > > > > We are trying to get a keyboard running so that folks can program their > > 9100's, the built-in keyboard is a pain, plus is limited in it's > > capabilities... > > > > What if an old VT-100 terminal or the like was used? Or a simple interface > > program...if anyone had a keyboard and a Logic Analyzer they could record > > the data stream for individual key presses, plus see what happens when the > > machine is first turned on for any chatter between the keyboard and the > base. > > > > Anyone know if you can plug the keyboard in after the unit is already on > > and if it will then find the keyboard with a RESET? > >To use the full screen editor and programming system, you have to >use the monitor and keyboard. Note that the external keyboard is >NOT active during normal operation, nor will it respond to it. You >press the "EDIT" button on the attached keyboard, which loads the >editor and enables the monitor and external keyboard. > >The keyboard has different keys than a standard PC102 keyboard. > Mappings would have to be made.

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RE: Gottlieb / Q*bert scripts for the 9010A/9100
by Chris Toseland 09 May '02

09 May '02

I'm coming into this thread half way so excuse me if i'm getting the wrong end of the stick. RomIdent does indeed use Standard CRC32, With Thierry's I wrote a VB front end that imported the Romident database into access and then took a file from disk or memory (It was an add on tool for my eprom programmer) and calculated it's CRC32 and scanned the DB for matches. The one down side I found was the diffence with how C++ and VB handle the datatype, it took a while to realise that VB had inverted all of the CRC values..... Chris -----Original Message----- From: Phillip Eaton [mailto:inbox@phillipeaton.com] Sent: 08 May 2002 22:51 To: TechToolsList(a)flippers.com Subject: RE: Gottlieb / Q*bert scripts for the 9010A/9100 AFAIK, the signature that Rom Ident uses is a standard CRC-32 calculation, which is calculated in an identical way to CRC-16 and CCITT CRCs, using all bits of each byte in the file. The polynomial may be different (i.e. more bits for CRC-32), but the technique is the same for any CRC/Signature calculation. Have a search for CRC-16 and CRC-32 on Google, you get back loads of results. WinZip uses CRC-32, as does MAME, to see the CRC-32 for a file, zip it up in WinZip (8.0?) and set the configuraiton options to show the CRC. You'll see it's 8 hex characters i.e. 32 bits. Cheers, Phillip Eaton > -----Original Message----- > From: John Robertson [mailto:jrr@flippers.com] > Sent: 08 May 2002 22:44 > To: Phillip Eaton; TechToolsList(a)flippers.com > Subject: RE: Gottlieb / Q*bert scripts for the 9010A/9100 > > > Home today fighting a small chest infection... > > I don't think these ROM Signatures generated by the base numbers are true > "Signatures" after all. Note that the coding for them does not follow the > convention of using HP's ACFHPU, rather the "signature" generated uses > standard HEX nomenclature.. Now I wonder what this number > actually is...I'm > going to try to use my new Arium ML1400 Logic Analyzer to see if > I can find > the section of code in the base that actually is used to create the ROM > signature and report back. > > I think it is more likely a signature similar to the one ROMIDENT uses... > anyone know it's root formula? > > John :-#)# > > At 10:06 AM 07/05/2002 +0100, Phillip Eaton wrote: > > >Ah ha! You've just spotted the reason for my previous > >question - What's the polynomial? > > > >I worked out the Cat Box polynomial directly from the PCB, > >you can actually _see_ the address counter and the XOR > >feedback points. Apparently the Cat Box polynomial is the > >same as the HP one. > > > >Now it gets a bit confusing... (Especially as I've not > >actually had time to get stuck into my Fluke and confirm all > >of this!) > > > >/As far as I can see/ The Fluke creates a signature with a > >similar procedure to a boring old checksum, by reading each > >byte of a region of memory space and performing a calculation > >on it to produce a single 16 bit signature. To create the > >signature, it right shifts each bit of each byte into the > >polynomimial XOR 'circuitry'. On the Cat Box the 'circuitry' > >is physical, but is probably software on the 9010a for > >reasons shown below. > > > >On a Fluke, there seems to be a bit of general confusion as > >to where the calculation is done, in the pod or in the main > >unit. I would be very surprised if it were done in the pod > >but I could be wrong. (I hope to have a look myself in the > >summer, when I've finished college...) > > > >Anyway, the Cat Box performs Signature /Analysis/, which also > >produces a signature, but not by reading in a chunk of bytes > >and creating a signature from them via software. > > > >Using a probe, it reads the chain of bits that occur at a > >particular point on a PCB when the address bus is ramped from > >0 to FFFFH. To test one part of a circuit e.g. a single ROM, > >you would tie a sig analysis start and stop line to the chip > >enable of the ROM which in effect maps to that ROMs address > >space only. > > > >If you point the probe at the one data line of the ROM, you > >will get a stream of bits which you can XOR in a similar way > >to the standard Fluke signature. BUT the calculation will > >only be performed on one bit of each byte as there are 8 data > >lines and you only have one probe! Thus, you get 8 signatures > >per ROM as shown in the Atari Cat Box signature reference for > >each PCB. > > > >A Fluke signature is an improved way of testing a ROMs > >integrity over a checksum, but it can't be used to analyse > >anything other than a fixed areas of memory space i.e. ROM. > >Signature /Analysis/ can test /any/ digital part of a circuit > >as long at it derives from the processor's address and data > >decoding (i.e you can't do the video circuitry). > > > >My program uses a software way of calculating the signature, > >but it emulates the Atari probe hardware i.e. by testing only > >1 bit of a byte and thus it is an emulator, as opposed to > >just a signature generator. > > > >I originally wrote it to do the 8 bits of a ROM, but this > >added an extra loop, and all I was really trying to do was > >show how it worked, so I went back to just one bit for > >clarity. > > > >Note BASIC has no bitwise operators so the code is a bit > >cumbersome, if you rewrote it in C, or even better Forth, it > >would be a fraction of the size. > > > >You could quite easily modify my emulation to either create > >all 8 checksums together like the Cat Box or pass all of the > >information from each byte serially into the calculation like > >the Fluke (if you knew it's polynomial). > > > >Cheers, > >Phillip Eaton > >http://www.phillipeaton.com > > > >---- Original message ---- > > >Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 21:45:41 -0700 > > >From: John Robertson <jrr(a)flippers.com> > > >Subject: RE: Gottlieb / Q*bert scripts for the 9010A/9100 > > >To: "Phillip Eaton" <inbox(a)phillipeaton.com>, > ><TechToolsList(a)flippers.com> > > > > > > > > >Hi Phillip, > > > > > >I just tried your emulator on a bunch of Asteroid files and > >compared them > > >with the signatures on the 9010 and I do not get the same > >results... Does > > >it not setup the same Signature that HP designed and thus > >should it not > > >give the same results for any file as the Fluke would do on > >a ROM signature > > >test? The signatures generated by your emulator are > >consistent - identical > > >files give identical signatures... > > > > > >Might I ask what the "Bit number <0 - 7>" refers to in the > >emulator? > > > > > >John :-#)# > > > > > >At 11:08 PM 06/05/2002 +0100, Phillip Eaton wrote: > > > > > > > > >>I wrote one of these a few years back. It's part of my > >Atari Cat Box > > >>signature analysis write-up which is held at > > >>http://www.gamearchive.com/video/manufacturer/atari/vector/s > >ignatures/ > > >> > > >>It includes a very simple program source code (to aid > >understanding) to do > > >>what you mentioned in MS DOS QBasic for the Cat Box. > > >> > > >>You could quite easily use it as a base to write your own, > >or simply change > > >>the polynomial in mine and it'd do what you need. > > >> > > >>How did you work out the ploynomial? > > >> > > >>Cheers, > > >>Phillip Eaton > > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > >> > From: owner-techtoolslist(a)www.flippers.com > > >> > [mailto:owner-techtoolslist@www.flippers.com]On Behalf > >Of John Robertson > > >> > Sent: 06 May 2002 22:03 > > >> > To: TechToolsList(a)flippers.com > > >> > Subject: Re: Gottlieb / Q*bert scripts for the 9010A/9100 > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > What we need is for some bright person to write a simple > >utility that > > >> > converts data files to signatures. The signature formula > >is fairly simple > > >> > and if combined with Bill Ung's ROMSUM would be a nice > >tool for our > > >> > package. If you don't know ROMSUM it is a dos utility > >that will give a > > >> > checksum listing plus the ROM size for a single or group > >of files... > > >> > > > >> > The Signature process is a CRC process that uses the > >following feedback > > >> > equation: X(to the 16th) + X(to the 12th) + X(to the > >9th) +X(to > > >> > the 7th) + > > >> > 1 or > > >> > P(X) = X(15th) + X(9th) + X(7th) +X(4th) + 1 > > >> > > > >> > So who wants to make a simple (not for me!) binary > >program that > > >> > allows one > > >> > to input a file and outputs it's signature? > > >> > > > >> > John :-#)# > > >> > > > >> > At 09:11 AM 06/05/2002 -0400, Kev wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >Anyone written any test scripts for these or at the > >very least have some > > >> > >checksum signatures? > > >> > > > > >> > >Thanks, > > >> > >Kev > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >

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Re: Gottlieb / Q*bert scripts for the 9010A/9100
by Kev 09 May '02

09 May '02

This idea doesn't work either since (look below) > >Okay, a checksum on a single byte of FF yeilds an FF > >I found this to be interesting...... > > >Byte 0 = F3 Sig = FE >Byte 1 = 3E Sig = 1EE8 >Byte 2 = 00 Sig = 1EE8 >Byte 3 = ED Sig = 225A >Byte 4 = 47 Sig = 56B6 Byte 12 = ?? Sig =910E Byte 13 = 00 Sig = 20F6 > >It isn't using the last read byte as the divisor is it? > >Kev > >> >>"Rom Signature is a four-digit HEXADECIMAL number that is a shorthand >>representation of the data obtained in an area of ROM memory. The ROM >>signature is obtained by successively dividing the data in ROM by a binary >>number (they DON't say what the @!$%#$@% number is! - JR). The resulting >>signature identifies the data from which it is obtained, and provides a >>convenient way of" (....blah blah, no other description of the process)."

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Re: Gottlieb / Q*bert scripts for the 9010A/9100
by Kev 09 May '02

09 May '02

>There is hardware for running an HP signature in the 9010a. I found this in the >service manual (page 4 of 4 of the main board schematic, or something like that, >there was no page number). Included in the calculation was a counter that >counts the number of high to low transitions made by the incoming data >bitstream. > Is this the Async clock module? (where you looking at the PDF from spies or do yo have a schematic?) >If this circuit is being used to calculate the sigs, it could be that this count >value is being added back into the calculation to convolute things. If this is >the case, the above solution won't work. > >This could be tested by, finding two identical signatures, using different >bytes, that created the same CRC, and then adding a third byte to see if they >are both still equal. > 2 identical signatures for the 9010A? we've got a collection of a paultry few. I did run across one the otherday but I'm pretty confident it was a typo. Alex Yeckley are you reading? Kev

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Uploads...
by John Robertson 09 May '02

09 May '02

(Opps, didn't mean to send this to the list...) Hi Kev, Just moved the uploads of yours, was the earlier Intro defective? I can't open it, plus it was only 24K in size. I've deleted it, was it just an earlier version of the 9010training manual you also uploaded... John :-#)#

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More uploads
by John Robertson 09 May '02

09 May '02

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