Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
The pod has a -1 CPU in it which should be good to 3 mhz the board is a straight 8080a which should be 2mhz. But I tried it with the CPU from the board just for completeness. No improvement. And the pod cpu works fine in game.
I have one board that will at least start up partially with the pod, but two others that just error on Run UUT.
It is really inconsistent. I think the way the memory system works the fluke ram test will never work (strange timing and sync to get the game board rotation stuff to coordinate access to ram).
I have two of these pods, both use the flat ribbon. I tried subbing a twisted ribbon from an 8085 pod but the pod fails self test (I suspect the ground lead is mucking with something).
I was testing an 8080 board only last year, but didn't get it booting, so it is sitting waiting for me to take another go. I can't recall doing the "Run" on any of the 8080 boards recently so haven't any better ideas at the moment... Perhaps someone else here has a suggestion? John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 7:23 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
So my mails to tech tools don't appear to be getting through. But this is a raster game so I will cross the stream.
*From:* David Shoemaker [mailto:davids@oz.net] *Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2013 12:20 AM *To:* 'Technical Tools Mail List' *Subject:* Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards?
I have a fully working space invaders board which when I hook the pod up to and do Run UUT doesn't, it starts up and crashes.
Pod passes self test.
Anyone ever done this?
David
Try a faster 8080 CPU in the pod, or try substituting the 8080 from the game in place of the pod CPU. It is possible the CPU is bad or slower than the system can handle.
Do you have the flat ribbon cable from the pod to the CPU socket or the twisted pair cable? The twisted pair cable handles noise better and will work in situations when the simple flat cable won't, plus it can be longer as a result.
David, I have no idea why this did not show up in TTL - you are subscribed under the same email address as you posted here. I haven't seen any bounces for your email address.
John :-#)#
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IIRR There are two resistors on the clock signals coming from the clock generator IC for the 8080 ... from memory, they should be 150ohm, but you might find different values loaded (taitos are different to schems, and had 750's). You can temporarily short the resistor or change for 100ohm so the clock signal goes straight through to the CPU or near enough. the fluke pod will then run UUT. This problem stumped me for months about a decade ago. I just resigned myself to the fact you couldn't run uut on 8080 pcbs. I finally came across a Taito SI with bad clocks and thats when i noticed the clock signal differences before and after the resistors, and the difference from the schems. I will say though, this problem is not really apparent on Midway pcbs, rarely do i get UUT run problems, maybe one in the last 30 or so i've fixed? I do sometimes get crashing or ram dots appearing, but i tend to ignore these because i know this is an artifact of the pod, its not worth modding every pcb if i pop a good cpu in and it runs fine. Most of the time i dont see it tbh, but ymmv. I have found a similar case with another game, but i forget what it was now, might have even been with an 8085 or something. Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com On 19/02/2013 04:12, John Robertson wrote:
David Shoemaker wrote:
The pod has a -1 CPU in it which should be good to 3 mhz the board is a straight 8080a which should be 2mhz. But I tried it with the CPU from the board just for completeness. No improvement. And the pod cpu works fine in game.
I have one board that will at least start up partially with the pod, but two others that just error on Run UUT.
It is really inconsistent. I think the way the memory system works the fluke ram test will never work (strange timing and sync to get the game board rotation stuff to coordinate access to ram).
I have two of these pods, both use the flat ribbon. I tried subbing a twisted ribbon from an 8085 pod but the pod fails self test (I suspect the ground lead is mucking with something).
I was testing an 8080 board only last year, but didn't get it booting, so it is sitting waiting for me to take another go. I can't recall doing the "Run" on any of the 8080 boards recently so haven't any better ideas at the moment...
Perhaps someone else here has a suggestion?
John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 7:23 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
So my mails to tech tools don't appear to be getting through. But this is a raster game so I will cross the stream.
*From:* David Shoemaker [mailto:davids@oz.net] *Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2013 12:20 AM *To:* 'Technical Tools Mail List' *Subject:* Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards?
I have a fully working space invaders board which when I hook the pod up to and do Run UUT doesn't, it starts up and crashes.
Pod passes self test.
Anyone ever done this?
David
Try a faster 8080 CPU in the pod, or try substituting the 8080 from the game in place of the pod CPU. It is possible the CPU is bad or slower than the system can handle.
Do you have the flat ribbon cable from the pod to the CPU socket or the twisted pair cable? The twisted pair cable handles noise better and will work in situations when the simple flat cable won't, plus it can be longer as a result.
David, I have no idea why this did not show up in TTL - you are subscribed under the same email address as you posted here. I haven't seen any bounces for your email address.
John :-#)#
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
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FWIW, we've never encountered anything other than 150 ohm resistors on Taito 8080 B&W boards, and (as a result? or as a coincidence?) have never needed to modify one in order to get it to run RAM or UUT successfully. Alex -----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Welburn Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 4:13 AM To: jrr@flippers.com; Technical Tools Mail List Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders) IIRR There are two resistors on the clock signals coming from the clock generator IC for the 8080 ... from memory, they should be 150ohm, but you might find different values loaded (taitos are different to schems, and had 750's). You can temporarily short the resistor or change for 100ohm so the clock signal goes straight through to the CPU or near enough. the fluke pod will then run UUT. This problem stumped me for months about a decade ago. I just resigned myself to the fact you couldn't run uut on 8080 pcbs. I finally came across a Taito SI with bad clocks and thats when i noticed the clock signal differences before and after the resistors, and the difference from the schems. I will say though, this problem is not really apparent on Midway pcbs, rarely do i get UUT run problems, maybe one in the last 30 or so i've fixed? I do sometimes get crashing or ram dots appearing, but i tend to ignore these because i know this is an artifact of the pod, its not worth modding every pcb if i pop a good cpu in and it runs fine. Most of the time i dont see it tbh, but ymmv. I have found a similar case with another game, but i forget what it was now, might have even been with an 8085 or something. Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com On 19/02/2013 04:12, John Robertson wrote:
David Shoemaker wrote:
The pod has a -1 CPU in it which should be good to 3 mhz the board is a straight 8080a which should be 2mhz. But I tried it with the CPU from the board just for completeness. No improvement. And the pod cpu works fine in game.
I have one board that will at least start up partially with the pod, but two others that just error on Run UUT.
It is really inconsistent. I think the way the memory system works the fluke ram test will never work (strange timing and sync to get the game board rotation stuff to coordinate access to ram).
I have two of these pods, both use the flat ribbon. I tried subbing a twisted ribbon from an 8085 pod but the pod fails self test (I suspect the ground lead is mucking with something).
I was testing an 8080 board only last year, but didn't get it booting, so it is sitting waiting for me to take another go. I can't recall doing the "Run" on any of the 8080 boards recently so haven't any better ideas at the moment...
Perhaps someone else here has a suggestion?
John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 7:23 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
So my mails to tech tools don't appear to be getting through. But this is a raster game so I will cross the stream.
*From:* David Shoemaker [mailto:davids@oz.net] *Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2013 12:20 AM *To:* 'Technical Tools Mail List' *Subject:* Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards?
I have a fully working space invaders board which when I hook the pod up to and do Run UUT doesn't, it starts up and crashes.
Pod passes self test.
Anyone ever done this?
David
Try a faster 8080 CPU in the pod, or try substituting the 8080 from the game in place of the pod CPU. It is possible the CPU is bad or slower than the system can handle.
Do you have the flat ribbon cable from the pod to the CPU socket or the twisted pair cable? The twisted pair cable handles noise better and will work in situations when the simple flat cable won't, plus it can be longer as a result.
David, I have no idea why this did not show up in TTL - you are subscribed under the same email address as you posted here. I haven't seen any bounces for your email address.
John :-#)#
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
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_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
There's nothing about the Midway 8080 board design that prevents the 9010/8080 pod from performing successful RAM tests (short or long) or running the UUT with a "standard" speed 8080 (even with its interleaved RAM scheme). We do it literally almost every day. We have seen a failure of a 6502 pod such that the address driver line was "weak" and couldn't always drive successfully drive the pin above the TTL threshold. That same pod would pass its own self test, presumably because the loopback inputs of the pod have higher impedance than the target board address lines. Perhaps something like that is happening here? Alex Yeckley Senior Electro-Mechanical Engineer Sierra Lobo, Inc. 11401 Hoover Road Milan, Ohio 44846 Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the original message. -----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:13 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders) David Shoemaker wrote:
The pod has a -1 CPU in it which should be good to 3 mhz the board is a straight 8080a which should be 2mhz. But I tried it with the CPU from the board just for completeness. No improvement. And the pod cpu works fine in game.
I have one board that will at least start up partially with the pod, but two others that just error on Run UUT.
It is really inconsistent. I think the way the memory system works the fluke ram test will never work (strange timing and sync to get the game board rotation stuff to coordinate access to ram).
I have two of these pods, both use the flat ribbon. I tried subbing a twisted ribbon from an 8085 pod but the pod fails self test (I suspect the ground lead is mucking with something).
I was testing an 8080 board only last year, but didn't get it booting, so it is sitting waiting for me to take another go. I can't recall doing the "Run" on any of the 8080 boards recently so haven't any better ideas at the moment... Perhaps someone else here has a suggestion? John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 7:23 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
So my mails to tech tools don't appear to be getting through. But this is a raster game so I will cross the stream.
*From:* David Shoemaker [mailto:davids@oz.net] *Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2013 12:20 AM *To:* 'Technical Tools Mail List' *Subject:* Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards?
I have a fully working space invaders board which when I hook the pod up to and do Run UUT doesn't, it starts up and crashes.
Pod passes self test.
Anyone ever done this?
David
Try a faster 8080 CPU in the pod, or try substituting the 8080 from the game in place of the pod CPU. It is possible the CPU is bad or slower than the system can handle.
Do you have the flat ribbon cable from the pod to the CPU socket or the twisted pair cable? The twisted pair cable handles noise better and will work in situations when the simple flat cable won't, plus it can be longer as a result.
David, I have no idea why this did not show up in TTL - you are subscribed under the same email address as you posted here. I haven't seen any bounces for your email address.
John :-#)#
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
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Do your pods have the twisted cable or the straight? Both mine have the straight. Are you using a 9010 or a 9100 to drive the pod? David -----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of Alex Yeckley Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 6:03 AM To: jrr@flippers.com; 'Technical Tools Mail List' Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders) There's nothing about the Midway 8080 board design that prevents the 9010/8080 pod from performing successful RAM tests (short or long) or running the UUT with a "standard" speed 8080 (even with its interleaved RAM scheme). We do it literally almost every day. We have seen a failure of a 6502 pod such that the address driver line was "weak" and couldn't always drive successfully drive the pin above the TTL threshold. That same pod would pass its own self test, presumably because the loopback inputs of the pod have higher impedance than the target board address lines. Perhaps something like that is happening here? Alex Yeckley Senior Electro-Mechanical Engineer Sierra Lobo, Inc. 11401 Hoover Road Milan, Ohio 44846 Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the original message. -----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 11:13 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders) David Shoemaker wrote:
The pod has a -1 CPU in it which should be good to 3 mhz the board is a straight 8080a which should be 2mhz. But I tried it with the CPU from the board just for completeness. No improvement. And the pod cpu works fine in game.
I have one board that will at least start up partially with the pod, but two others that just error on Run UUT.
It is really inconsistent. I think the way the memory system works the fluke ram test will never work (strange timing and sync to get the game board rotation stuff to coordinate access to ram).
I have two of these pods, both use the flat ribbon. I tried subbing a twisted ribbon from an 8085 pod but the pod fails self test (I suspect the ground lead is mucking with something).
I was testing an 8080 board only last year, but didn't get it booting, so it is sitting waiting for me to take another go. I can't recall doing the "Run" on any of the 8080 boards recently so haven't any better ideas at the moment... Perhaps someone else here has a suggestion? John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 7:23 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
So my mails to tech tools don't appear to be getting through. But this is a raster game so I will cross the stream.
*From:* David Shoemaker [mailto:davids@oz.net] *Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2013 12:20 AM *To:* 'Technical Tools Mail List' *Subject:* Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards?
I have a fully working space invaders board which when I hook the pod up to and do Run UUT doesn't, it starts up and crashes.
Pod passes self test.
Anyone ever done this?
David
Try a faster 8080 CPU in the pod, or try substituting the 8080 from the game in place of the pod CPU. It is possible the CPU is bad or slower than the system can handle.
Do you have the flat ribbon cable from the pod to the CPU socket or the twisted pair cable? The twisted pair cable handles noise better and will work in situations when the simple flat cable won't, plus it can be longer as a result.
David, I have no idea why this did not show up in TTL - you are subscribed under the same email address as you posted here. I haven't seen any bounces for your email address.
John :-#)#
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
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_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/ _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Do your pods have the twisted cable or the straight? Both mine have the straight.
Our 8080 pods have the OEM twisted cables. Our 6502 pods (re: Clay's Tempest question) come in both twisted and the flat cables. I'm assuming the flat cable is a non-factory replacement item, but could be totally wrong about that. The 6502 pod that failed just happened to have had a flat cable but I'm confident the drive problem was unrelated; we found one specific driver output that wasn't going sufficiently high once plugged into a "real" target board. It wasn't a general malaise of the address lines like you might expect from transmission line losses or higher EMI susceptibility due to the flat cable if that's what you are wondering.
Are you using a 9010 or a 9100 to drive the pod?
Both... Alex ---- ayeckley@elektronforge.com www.elektronforge.com
Any chance I could have you open one up and look at the ground lead on the twisted pin cable? I have an 8085 pod I tried to borrow the twisted pair cable from and it has the shield ground tied to pin 20. That doesn't work on the 8080 as that pin is +5. Ground should be tied to pin 2. I am wondering how they did that I suspect it is in the potted UUT end as I don't see anything on the connector end. David -----Original Message----- From: owner-rasterlist@vectorlist.org [mailto:owner-rasterlist@vectorlist.org] On Behalf Of Alex Yeckley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:15 AM To: 'David Shoemaker'; 'Technical Tools Mail List'; jrr@flippers.com; rasterlist@vectorlist.org Subject: RE: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
Do your pods have the twisted cable or the straight? Both mine have the straight.
Our 8080 pods have the OEM twisted cables. Our 6502 pods (re: Clay's Tempest question) come in both twisted and the flat cables. I'm assuming the flat cable is a non-factory replacement item, but could be totally wrong about that. The 6502 pod that failed just happened to have had a flat cable but I'm confident the drive problem was unrelated; we found one specific driver output that wasn't going sufficiently high once plugged into a "real" target board. It wasn't a general malaise of the address lines like you might expect from transmission line losses or higher EMI susceptibility due to the flat cable if that's what you are wondering.
Are you using a 9010 or a 9100 to drive the pod?
Both... Alex ---- ayeckley@elektronforge.com www.elektronforge.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** Unsubscribe, subscribe, or view the archives at http://www.vectorlist.org ** Please direct other questions, comments, or problems to chris@westnet.com
I can try sometime after I get back from this current business trip. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 21, 2013, at 9:55 PM, "David Shoemaker" <davids@oz.net> wrote:
Any chance I could have you open one up and look at the ground lead on the twisted pin cable? I have an 8085 pod I tried to borrow the twisted pair cable from and it has the shield ground tied to pin 20. That doesn't work on the 8080 as that pin is +5. Ground should be tied to pin 2. I am wondering how they did that I suspect it is in the potted UUT end as I don't see anything on the connector end.
David
-----Original Message----- From: owner-rasterlist@vectorlist.org [mailto:owner-rasterlist@vectorlist.org] On Behalf Of Alex Yeckley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:15 AM To: 'David Shoemaker'; 'Technical Tools Mail List'; jrr@flippers.com; rasterlist@vectorlist.org Subject: RE: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
Do your pods have the twisted cable or the straight? Both mine have the straight.
Our 8080 pods have the OEM twisted cables. Our 6502 pods (re: Clay's Tempest question) come in both twisted and the flat cables. I'm assuming the flat cable is a non-factory replacement item, but could be totally wrong about that. The 6502 pod that failed just happened to have had a flat cable but I'm confident the drive problem was unrelated; we found one specific driver output that wasn't going sufficiently high once plugged into a "real" target board. It wasn't a general malaise of the address lines like you might expect from transmission line losses or higher EMI susceptibility due to the flat cable if that's what you are wondering.
Are you using a 9010 or a 9100 to drive the pod?
Both...
Alex ---- ayeckley@elektronforge.com www.elektronforge.com
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David Shoemaker wrote:
Any chance I could have you open one up and look at the ground lead on the twisted pin cable? I have an 8085 pod I tried to borrow the twisted pair cable from and it has the shield ground tied to pin 20. That doesn't work on the 8080 as that pin is +5. Ground should be tied to pin 2. I am wondering how they did that I suspect it is in the potted UUT end as I don't see anything on the connector end.
David
Hi David, I've taken these pods apart enough times to tell you this off the top of my head. The twisted pair cable is broken out for one row alternately inside the pod case, one wire goes to a common metal strip, the other to the pin header. The strips are tied together and have a short jumper wire that simply goes to the screw on the left end of the connector. At the encapsulated end all the grey ground wires appear to be tied together as well as to any ground pins on the plug. So you can't exchange shielded cables between different pods UNLESS they have the same ground connections on the CPU. John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: owner-rasterlist@vectorlist.org [mailto:owner-rasterlist@vectorlist.org] On Behalf Of Alex Yeckley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:15 AM To: 'David Shoemaker'; 'Technical Tools Mail List'; jrr@flippers.com; rasterlist@vectorlist.org Subject: RE: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
Do your pods have the twisted cable or the straight? Both mine have the straight.
Our 8080 pods have the OEM twisted cables. Our 6502 pods (re: Clay's Tempest question) come in both twisted and the flat cables. I'm assuming the flat cable is a non-factory replacement item, but could be totally wrong about that. The 6502 pod that failed just happened to have had a flat cable but I'm confident the drive problem was unrelated; we found one specific driver output that wasn't going sufficiently high once plugged into a "real" target board. It wasn't a general malaise of the address lines like you might expect from transmission line losses or higher EMI susceptibility due to the flat cable if that's what you are wondering.
Are you using a 9010 or a 9100 to drive the pod?
Both...
Alex ---- ayeckley@elektronforge.com www.elektronforge.com
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-- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Uh-oh..... Op 22 feb. 2013, om 21:39 heeft John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> het volgende geschreven:
David Shoemaker wrote:
Any chance I could have you open one up and look at the ground lead on the twisted pin cable? I have an 8085 pod I tried to borrow the twisted pair cable from and it has the shield ground tied to pin 20. That doesn't work on the 8080 as that pin is +5. Ground should be tied to pin 2. I am wondering how they did that I suspect it is in the potted UUT end as I don't see anything on the connector end.
David
Hi David,
I've taken these pods apart enough times to tell you this off the top of my head. The twisted pair cable is broken out for one row alternately inside the pod case, one wire goes to a common metal strip, the other to the pin header. The strips are tied together and have a short jumper wire that simply goes to the screw on the left end of the connector.
At the encapsulated end all the grey ground wires appear to be tied together as well as to any ground pins on the plug.
So you can't exchange shielded cables between different pods UNLESS they have the same ground connections on the CPU.
John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: owner-rasterlist@vectorlist.org [mailto:owner-rasterlist@vectorlist.org] On Behalf Of Alex Yeckley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:15 AM To: 'David Shoemaker'; 'Technical Tools Mail List'; jrr@flippers.com; rasterlist@vectorlist.org Subject: RE: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
Do your pods have the twisted cable or the straight? Both mine have the straight.
Our 8080 pods have the OEM twisted cables. Our 6502 pods (re: Clay's Tempest question) come in both twisted and the flat cables. I'm assuming the flat cable is a non-factory replacement item, but could be totally wrong about that. The 6502 pod that failed just happened to have had a flat cable but I'm confident the drive problem was unrelated; we found one specific driver output that wasn't going sufficiently high once plugged into a "real" target board. It wasn't a general malaise of the address lines like you might expect from transmission line losses or higher EMI susceptibility due to the flat cable if that's what you are wondering.
Are you using a 9010 or a 9100 to drive the pod?
Both...
Alex ---- ayeckley@elektronforge.com www.elektronforge.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** Unsubscribe, subscribe, or view the archives at http://www.vectorlist.org ** Please direct other questions, comments, or problems to chris@westnet.com
-- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
André Huijts andre.huijts@upcmail.nl
What I am trying to figure out is are both my pods bad (which I doubt as two are behaving the same way) or is my 9010. -----Original Message----- From: prvs=1763d5e072=ayeckley@sierralobo.com [mailto:prvs=1763d5e072=ayeckley@sierralobo.com] On Behalf Of Alex Yeckley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:15 AM To: 'David Shoemaker'; 'Technical Tools Mail List'; jrr@flippers.com; rasterlist@vectorlist.org Subject: RE: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
Do your pods have the twisted cable or the straight? Both mine have the straight.
Our 8080 pods have the OEM twisted cables. Our 6502 pods (re: Clay's Tempest question) come in both twisted and the flat cables. I'm assuming the flat cable is a non-factory replacement item, but could be totally wrong about that. The 6502 pod that failed just happened to have had a flat cable but I'm confident the drive problem was unrelated; we found one specific driver output that wasn't going sufficiently high once plugged into a "real" target board. It wasn't a general malaise of the address lines like you might expect from transmission line losses or higher EMI susceptibility due to the flat cable if that's what you are wondering.
Are you using a 9010 or a 9100 to drive the pod?
Both... Alex ---- ayeckley@elektronforge.com www.elektronforge.com
David Shoemaker wrote:
What I am trying to figure out is are both my pods bad (which I doubt as two are behaving the same way) or is my 9010.
If you are wondering if the base (9010/9100) affects the Run UUT command the answer is no. When the pod is in the RUN UUT mode it is entirely independent from the base - other than it can be over-ridden with a command - it does not talk to the base at all. This is covered somewhere in the manuals... Some of the manuals are searchable - look up RUN UUT and see what is written, pretty sure I've remembered it correctly. All the base does is tell the CPU where the Reset Vector is, after that the pod is on it's own. John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: prvs=1763d5e072=ayeckley@sierralobo.com [mailto:prvs=1763d5e072=ayeckley@sierralobo.com] On Behalf Of Alex Yeckley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:15 AM To: 'David Shoemaker'; 'Technical Tools Mail List'; jrr@flippers.com; rasterlist@vectorlist.org Subject: RE: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
Do your pods have the twisted cable or the straight? Both mine have the straight.
Our 8080 pods have the OEM twisted cables. Our 6502 pods (re: Clay's Tempest question) come in both twisted and the flat cables. I'm assuming the flat cable is a non-factory replacement item, but could be totally wrong about that. The 6502 pod that failed just happened to have had a flat cable but I'm confident the drive problem was unrelated; we found one specific driver output that wasn't going sufficiently high once plugged into a "real" target board. It wasn't a general malaise of the address lines like you might expect from transmission line losses or higher EMI susceptibility due to the flat cable if that's what you are wondering.
Are you using a 9010 or a 9100 to drive the pod?
Both...
Alex ---- ayeckley@elektronforge.com www.elektronforge.com
-- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Hmm, ok well that doesn't bode well for my pods. I can't get anything close to a reliable memory test and no Run UUT success. I often get pod power failure. This is on a known good working board set. Both my pods have the short flat cables. I see another 8080 up on ebay with a longer twisted pair style cable but they are asking $200 for it. No way I am doing that at this point. -----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders) David Shoemaker wrote:
What I am trying to figure out is are both my pods bad (which I doubt as two are behaving the same way) or is my 9010.
If you are wondering if the base (9010/9100) affects the Run UUT command the answer is no. When the pod is in the RUN UUT mode it is entirely independent from the base - other than it can be over-ridden with a command - it does not talk to the base at all. This is covered somewhere in the manuals... Some of the manuals are searchable - look up RUN UUT and see what is written, pretty sure I've remembered it correctly. All the base does is tell the CPU where the Reset Vector is, after that the pod is on it's own. John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: prvs=1763d5e072=ayeckley@sierralobo.com [mailto:prvs=1763d5e072=ayeckley@sierralobo.com] On Behalf Of Alex Yeckley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:15 AM To: 'David Shoemaker'; 'Technical Tools Mail List'; jrr@flippers.com; rasterlist@vectorlist.org Subject: RE: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
Do your pods have the twisted cable or the straight? Both mine have the straight.
Our 8080 pods have the OEM twisted cables. Our 6502 pods (re: Clay's Tempest question) come in both twisted and the flat cables. I'm assuming the flat cable is a non-factory replacement item, but could be totally wrong about that. The 6502 pod that failed just happened to have had a flat cable but I'm confident the drive problem was unrelated; we found one specific driver output that wasn't going sufficiently high once plugged into a "real" target board. It wasn't a general malaise of the address lines like you might expect from transmission line losses or higher EMI susceptibility due to the flat cable if that's what you are wondering.
Are you using a 9010 or a 9100 to drive the pod?
Both...
Alex ---- ayeckley@elektronforge.com www.elektronforge.com
-- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
David Shoemaker wrote:
Hmm, ok well that doesn't bode well for my pods.
I can't get anything close to a reliable memory test and no Run UUT success. I often get pod power failure. This is on a known good working board set.
Both my pods have the short flat cables. I see another 8080 up on ebay with a longer twisted pair style cable but they are asking $200 for it. No way I am doing that at this point.
Ah, well that is different. I too have had trouble with the pods on the Midway 8080 systems. Have you tried the resistor trick that Andrew pointed out? I'm going to be testing a reluctant board set soon and am looking forward to getting reliable RAM etc tests. I do have the Midway RAM Test card and that is a big help, but it would be best if the pod worked properly. Short flat ribbons work fine on my Z80 pod running a Galaga so I see no reason they wouldn't work on an 8080 pod. The advantage to the twisted pair cable is it can be longer making it easier to move the pod out of the way. John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
What I am trying to figure out is are both my pods bad (which I doubt as two are behaving the same way) or is my 9010.
If you are wondering if the base (9010/9100) affects the Run UUT command the answer is no. When the pod is in the RUN UUT mode it is entirely independent from the base - other than it can be over-ridden with a command - it does not talk to the base at all. This is covered somewhere in the manuals... Some of the manuals are searchable - look up RUN UUT and see what is written, pretty sure I've remembered it correctly. All the base does is tell the CPU where the Reset Vector is, after that the pod is on it's own.
John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: prvs=1763d5e072=ayeckley@sierralobo.com [mailto:prvs=1763d5e072=ayeckley@sierralobo.com] On Behalf Of Alex Yeckley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:15 AM To: 'David Shoemaker'; 'Technical Tools Mail List'; jrr@flippers.com; rasterlist@vectorlist.org Subject: RE: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
Do your pods have the twisted cable or the straight? Both mine have the straight.
Our 8080 pods have the OEM twisted cables. Our 6502 pods (re: Clay's Tempest question) come in both twisted and the flat cables. I'm assuming the flat cable is a non-factory replacement item, but could be totally wrong about that. The 6502 pod that failed just happened to have had a flat cable but I'm confident the drive problem was unrelated; we found one specific driver output that wasn't going
sufficiently high once plugged into a "real"
target board. It wasn't a general malaise of the address lines like you might expect from transmission line losses or higher EMI susceptibility due to the flat cable if that's what you are wondering.
Are you using a 9010 or a 9100 to drive the pod?
Both...
Alex ---- ayeckley@elektronforge.com www.elektronforge.com
-- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
-- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
I missed the resistor trick, will have to try that tomorrow. Have you backed up the midway test card rom? I saw a picture of that board and it looks pretty darn simple to reproduce but I didn't have a copy of the rom image. David -----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:10 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders) David Shoemaker wrote:
Hmm, ok well that doesn't bode well for my pods.
I can't get anything close to a reliable memory test and no Run UUT success. I often get pod power failure. This is on a known good working board set.
Both my pods have the short flat cables. I see another 8080 up on ebay with a longer twisted pair style cable but they are asking $200 for it. No way I am doing that at this point.
Ah, well that is different. I too have had trouble with the pods on the Midway 8080 systems. Have you tried the resistor trick that Andrew pointed out? I'm going to be testing a reluctant board set soon and am looking forward to getting reliable RAM etc tests. I do have the Midway RAM Test card and that is a big help, but it would be best if the pod worked properly. Short flat ribbons work fine on my Z80 pod running a Galaga so I see no reason they wouldn't work on an 8080 pod. The advantage to the twisted pair cable is it can be longer making it easier to move the pod out of the way. John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
What I am trying to figure out is are both my pods bad (which I doubt as two are behaving the same way) or is my 9010.
If you are wondering if the base (9010/9100) affects the Run UUT command the answer is no. When the pod is in the RUN UUT mode it is entirely independent from the base - other than it can be over-ridden with a command - it does not talk to the base at all. This is covered somewhere in the manuals... Some of the manuals are searchable - look up RUN UUT and see what is written, pretty sure I've remembered it correctly. All the base does is tell the CPU where the Reset Vector is, after that the pod is on it's own.
John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: prvs=1763d5e072=ayeckley@sierralobo.com [mailto:prvs=1763d5e072=ayeckley@sierralobo.com] On Behalf Of Alex Yeckley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:15 AM To: 'David Shoemaker'; 'Technical Tools Mail List'; jrr@flippers.com; rasterlist@vectorlist.org Subject: RE: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
Do your pods have the twisted cable or the straight? Both mine have the straight.
Our 8080 pods have the OEM twisted cables. Our 6502 pods (re: Clay's Tempest question) come in both twisted and the flat cables. I'm assuming the flat cable is a non-factory replacement item, but could be totally wrong about that. The 6502 pod that failed just happened to have had a flat cable but I'm confident the drive problem was unrelated; we found one specific driver output that wasn't going
sufficiently high once plugged into a "real"
target board. It wasn't a general malaise of the address lines like you might expect from transmission line losses or higher EMI susceptibility due to the flat cable if that's what you are wondering.
Are you using a 9010 or a 9100 to drive the pod?
Both...
Alex ---- ayeckley@elektronforge.com www.elektronforge.com
-- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
-- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
David Shoemaker wrote:
I missed the resistor trick, will have to try that tomorrow.
Have you backed up the midway test card rom? I saw a picture of that board and it looks pretty darn simple to reproduce but I didn't have a copy of the rom image.
David
I pretty much always archive ROMs when I run into them. Have a huge library (mostly duplicates of other folks libraries I'm sure) after collecting images for decades... I've added my Midway test files as a couple of zips to this posting in case anyone else is interested. The RAM_TEST.bin is for the 8080 RAM Test card, the other space_invaders_test_rom.zip is an 8080 RAM test you stuff into Eprom "H"'s socket. Haven't tried it in years... John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:10 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
Hmm, ok well that doesn't bode well for my pods.
I can't get anything close to a reliable memory test and no Run UUT
success.
I often get pod power failure. This is on a known good working board set.
Both my pods have the short flat cables. I see another 8080 up on ebay with a longer twisted pair style cable but they are asking $200 for it. No way I am doing that at this point.
Ah, well that is different. I too have had trouble with the pods on the Midway 8080 systems. Have you tried the resistor trick that Andrew pointed out? I'm going to be testing a reluctant board set soon and am looking forward to getting reliable RAM etc tests. I do have the Midway RAM Test card and that is a big help, but it would be best if the pod worked properly.
Short flat ribbons work fine on my Z80 pod running a Galaga so I see no reason they wouldn't work on an 8080 pod. The advantage to the twisted pair cable is it can be longer making it easier to move the pod out of the way.
John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
What I am trying to figure out is are both my pods bad (which I doubt as two are behaving the same way) or is my 9010.
If you are wondering if the base (9010/9100) affects the Run UUT command the answer is no. When the pod is in the RUN UUT mode it is entirely independent from the base - other than it can be over-ridden with a command - it does not talk to the base at all. This is covered
somewhere in the manuals...
Some of the manuals are searchable - look up RUN UUT and see what is written, pretty sure I've remembered it correctly. All the base does is tell the CPU where the Reset Vector is, after that the pod is on it's
own.
John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: prvs=1763d5e072=ayeckley@sierralobo.com [mailto:prvs=1763d5e072=ayeckley@sierralobo.com] On Behalf Of Alex Yeckley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:15 AM To: 'David Shoemaker'; 'Technical Tools Mail List'; jrr@flippers.com; rasterlist@vectorlist.org Subject: RE: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
Do your pods have the twisted cable or the straight? Both mine have the straight.
Our 8080 pods have the OEM twisted cables. Our 6502 pods (re: Clay's Tempest question) come in both twisted and the flat cables. I'm assuming the flat cable is a non-factory replacement item, but could be totally wrong about that. The 6502 pod that failed just happened to have had a flat cable but I'm confident the drive problem was unrelated; we found one specific driver output that wasn't going
sufficiently high once plugged into a "real"
target board. It wasn't a general malaise of the address lines like you might expect from transmission line losses or higher EMI susceptibility due to the flat cable if that's what you are wondering.
Are you using a 9010 or a 9100 to drive the pod?
Both...
Alex ---- ayeckley@elektronforge.com www.elektronforge.com
-- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
David Shoemaker wrote:
I missed the resistor trick, will have to try that tomorrow.
Have you backed up the midway test card rom? I saw a picture of that board and it looks pretty darn simple to reproduce but I didn't have a copy of the rom image.
David
That didn't work (zip attachment). So...I've added all my Midway test files to the ftp site: TTL/Test_Equipment/Midway John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:10 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
Hmm, ok well that doesn't bode well for my pods.
I can't get anything close to a reliable memory test and no Run UUT
success.
I often get pod power failure. This is on a known good working board set.
Both my pods have the short flat cables. I see another 8080 up on ebay with a longer twisted pair style cable but they are asking $200 for it. No way I am doing that at this point.
Ah, well that is different. I too have had trouble with the pods on the Midway 8080 systems. Have you tried the resistor trick that Andrew pointed out? I'm going to be testing a reluctant board set soon and am looking forward to getting reliable RAM etc tests. I do have the Midway RAM Test card and that is a big help, but it would be best if the pod worked properly.
Short flat ribbons work fine on my Z80 pod running a Galaga so I see no reason they wouldn't work on an 8080 pod. The advantage to the twisted pair cable is it can be longer making it easier to move the pod out of the way.
John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:15 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
What I am trying to figure out is are both my pods bad (which I doubt as two are behaving the same way) or is my 9010.
If you are wondering if the base (9010/9100) affects the Run UUT command the answer is no. When the pod is in the RUN UUT mode it is entirely independent from the base - other than it can be over-ridden with a command - it does not talk to the base at all. This is covered
somewhere in the manuals...
Some of the manuals are searchable - look up RUN UUT and see what is written, pretty sure I've remembered it correctly. All the base does is tell the CPU where the Reset Vector is, after that the pod is on it's
own.
John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: prvs=1763d5e072=ayeckley@sierralobo.com [mailto:prvs=1763d5e072=ayeckley@sierralobo.com] On Behalf Of Alex Yeckley Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 4:15 AM To: 'David Shoemaker'; 'Technical Tools Mail List'; jrr@flippers.com; rasterlist@vectorlist.org Subject: RE: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
Do your pods have the twisted cable or the straight? Both mine have the straight.
Our 8080 pods have the OEM twisted cables. Our 6502 pods (re: Clay's Tempest question) come in both twisted and the flat cables. I'm assuming the flat cable is a non-factory replacement item, but could be totally wrong about that. The 6502 pod that failed just happened to have had a flat cable but I'm confident the drive problem was unrelated; we found one specific driver output that wasn't going
sufficiently high once plugged into a "real"
target board. It wasn't a general malaise of the address lines like you might expect from transmission line losses or higher EMI susceptibility due to the flat cable if that's what you are wondering.
Are you using a 9010 or a 9100 to drive the pod?
Both...
Alex ---- ayeckley@elektronforge.com www.elektronforge.com
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
We have seen a failure of a 6502 pod such that the address driver line was "weak" and couldn't always drive successfully drive the pin above the TTL threshold. That same pod would pass its own self test, presumably because the loopback inputs of the pod have higher impedance than the target board address lines. Perhaps something like that is happening here?
Out of curiosity, has anyone successfully run Tempest from the 6502 pod? I never had any trouble using one to poke around in memory and test stuff (way back with the Tempest multigame), but my Tempest machine would never 'run' from the 9010. Tried a couple different CPU's and maybe even a 9005, but I only had one 6502 pod... Never really knew if it was just my machine, the pod or both... -Clay _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Been a while but I am pretty sure I was able to run mine tempest with mine. -----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of Clay Cowgill Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 7:02 PM To: 'Technical Tools Mail List' Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway8080 boards (Space Invaders)
We have seen a failure of a 6502 pod such that the address driver line was "weak" and couldn't always drive successfully drive the pin above the TTL threshold. That same pod would pass its own self test, presumably because the loopback inputs of the pod have higher impedance than the target board address lines. Perhaps something like that is happening here?
Out of curiosity, has anyone successfully run Tempest from the 6502 pod? I never had any trouble using one to poke around in memory and test stuff (way back with the Tempest multigame), but my Tempest machine would never 'run' from the 9010. Tried a couple different CPU's and maybe even a 9005, but I only had one 6502 pod... Never really knew if it was just my machine, the pod or both... -Clay _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/ _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
I seem to remember that 99% of the time it was fine, but ocassionally i would come across a pcb where it might crash or the vectors might get messed up in game mode. I seem to remember this one only maybe 1 or 2 pcbs out of 20? When i come across pcbs that wont run UUT, i don't panic over them too much, because it doesn't affect any other diagnostic function (i use a 9100A) The other games that wont run UUT are later multiple-cpu type stuff, but i do get it a lot with 68000 games, again, i don't worry about it too much, just something to bear in mind. FWIW - i've never seen a fluke pod with a non-twistedpair cpu cable, and i've seen tonnes of the blighters. Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com On 20/02/2013 04:14, David Shoemaker wrote:
Been a while but I am pretty sure I was able to run mine tempest with mine.
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of Clay Cowgill Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 7:02 PM To: 'Technical Tools Mail List' Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway8080 boards (Space Invaders)
We have seen a failure of a 6502 pod such that the address driver line was "weak" and couldn't always drive successfully drive the pin above the TTL threshold. That same pod would pass its own self test, presumably because the loopback inputs of the pod have higher impedance than the target board address lines. Perhaps something like that is happening here?
Out of curiosity, has anyone successfully run Tempest from the 6502 pod? I never had any trouble using one to poke around in memory and test stuff (way back with the Tempest multigame), but my Tempest machine would never 'run' from the 9010. Tried a couple different CPU's and maybe even a 9005, but I only had one 6502 pod... Never really knew if it was just my machine, the pod or both...
-Clay
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Yes, we're able to run Tempest boards with a standard 6502 pod with no problems also. Alex ---- ayeckley@elektronforge.com www.elektronforge.com
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of Clay Cowgill Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:02 PM To: 'Technical Tools Mail List' Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway8080 boards(Space Invaders)
We have seen a failure of a 6502 pod such that the address driver line was "weak" and couldn't always drive successfully drive the pin above the TTL threshold. That same pod would pass its own self test, presumably because the loopback inputs of the pod have higher impedance than the target board address lines. Perhaps something like that is happening here?
Out of curiosity, has anyone successfully run Tempest from the 6502 pod? I never had any trouble using one to poke around in memory and test stuff (way back with the Tempest multigame), but my Tempest machine would never 'run' from the 9010. Tried a couple different CPU's and maybe even a 9005, but I only had one 6502 pod... Never really knew if it was just my machine, the pod or both...
-Clay
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
I have successfully run all Atari boards with the 6502, and 6809 pods. Generally I do a Run UUT @0 I never type in 0000 Don't know if that makes a difference. Kevin On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 9:02 PM, Clay Cowgill <c.cowgill@comcast.net> wrote:
We have seen a failure of a 6502 pod such that the address driver line was "weak" and couldn't always drive successfully drive the pin above the TTL threshold. That same pod would pass its own self test, presumably because the loopback inputs of the pod have higher impedance than the target board address lines. Perhaps something like that is happening here?
Out of curiosity, has anyone successfully run Tempest from the 6502 pod? I never had any trouble using one to poke around in memory and test stuff (way back with the Tempest multigame), but my Tempest machine would never 'run' from the 9010. Tried a couple different CPU's and maybe even a 9005, but I only had one 6502 pod... Never really knew if it was just my machine, the pod or both...
-Clay
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Just to round this discussion off.. i have this adapter (unused) : http://www.andysarcade.net/pix/9000A-8085uutadapt.JPG to quote: "Improves clock signal quality between UUT and the pod by reducing the effects of capacitive loading" Proof that there are instances where a pod wont work quite right in-circuit. It is rare, but some circuit designs are on the edge and the pod can tip the balance. Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com On 19/02/2013 04:12, John Robertson wrote:
David Shoemaker wrote:
The pod has a -1 CPU in it which should be good to 3 mhz the board is a straight 8080a which should be 2mhz. But I tried it with the CPU from the board just for completeness. No improvement. And the pod cpu works fine in game.
I have one board that will at least start up partially with the pod, but two others that just error on Run UUT.
It is really inconsistent. I think the way the memory system works the fluke ram test will never work (strange timing and sync to get the game board rotation stuff to coordinate access to ram).
I have two of these pods, both use the flat ribbon. I tried subbing a twisted ribbon from an 8085 pod but the pod fails self test (I suspect the ground lead is mucking with something).
I was testing an 8080 board only last year, but didn't get it booting, so it is sitting waiting for me to take another go. I can't recall doing the "Run" on any of the 8080 boards recently so haven't any better ideas at the moment...
Perhaps someone else here has a suggestion?
John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 7:23 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
So my mails to tech tools don't appear to be getting through. But this is a raster game so I will cross the stream.
*From:* David Shoemaker [mailto:davids@oz.net] *Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2013 12:20 AM *To:* 'Technical Tools Mail List' *Subject:* Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards?
I have a fully working space invaders board which when I hook the pod up to and do Run UUT doesn't, it starts up and crashes.
Pod passes self test.
Anyone ever done this?
David
Try a faster 8080 CPU in the pod, or try substituting the 8080 from the game in place of the pod CPU. It is possible the CPU is bad or slower than the system can handle.
Do you have the flat ribbon cable from the pod to the CPU socket or the twisted pair cable? The twisted pair cable handles noise better and will work in situations when the simple flat cable won't, plus it can be longer as a result.
David, I have no idea why this did not show up in TTL - you are subscribed under the same email address as you posted here. I haven't seen any bounces for your email address.
John :-#)#
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
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_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Andrew Welburn wrote:
Just to round this discussion off.. i have this adapter (unused) :
http://www.andysarcade.net/pix/9000A-8085uutadapt.JPG
to quote: "Improves clock signal quality between UUT and the pod by reducing the effects of capacitive loading"
Proof that there are instances where a pod wont work quite right in-circuit. It is rare, but some circuit designs are on the edge and the pod can tip the balance.
Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com
Hi Andy, Feel like opening the package and sharing a PDF of the instructions? Probably includes a schematic of the mod which may help others (like me) figure out a simple way to improve Pod response...although it may simply be a kit made by Fluke based on their technical tip guide B0151 which has suggested mods: (ftp) Fluke/PDFs/Training_and_Troubleshooting/B0151-Guide to 8085 Troubleshooting.pdf Thanks! John :-#)#
On 19/02/2013 04:12, John Robertson wrote:
David Shoemaker wrote:
The pod has a -1 CPU in it which should be good to 3 mhz the board is a straight 8080a which should be 2mhz. But I tried it with the CPU from the board just for completeness. No improvement. And the pod cpu works fine in game.
I have one board that will at least start up partially with the pod, but two others that just error on Run UUT.
It is really inconsistent. I think the way the memory system works the fluke ram test will never work (strange timing and sync to get the game board rotation stuff to coordinate access to ram).
I have two of these pods, both use the flat ribbon. I tried subbing a twisted ribbon from an 8085 pod but the pod fails self test (I suspect the ground lead is mucking with something).
I was testing an 8080 board only last year, but didn't get it booting, so it is sitting waiting for me to take another go. I can't recall doing the "Run" on any of the 8080 boards recently so haven't any better ideas at the moment...
Perhaps someone else here has a suggestion?
John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 7:23 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
So my mails to tech tools don't appear to be getting through. But this is a raster game so I will cross the stream.
*From:* David Shoemaker [mailto:davids@oz.net] *Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2013 12:20 AM *To:* 'Technical Tools Mail List' *Subject:* Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards?
I have a fully working space invaders board which when I hook the pod up to and do Run UUT doesn't, it starts up and crashes.
Pod passes self test.
Anyone ever done this?
David
Try a faster 8080 CPU in the pod, or try substituting the 8080 from the game in place of the pod CPU. It is possible the CPU is bad or slower than the system can handle.
Do you have the flat ribbon cable from the pod to the CPU socket or the twisted pair cable? The twisted pair cable handles noise better and will work in situations when the simple flat cable won't, plus it can be longer as a result.
David, I have no idea why this did not show up in TTL - you are subscribed under the same email address as you posted here. I haven't seen any bounces for your email address.
John :-#)#
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Why can't i see anything in the flippers ftp today ? Opening a 30 year old packet! should i? how dare you suggest it! i'll let out the 1983 air! i need my hazmat suit and breathing apparatus.. I just opened it... its value has dropped 1000%. Its now worth $1 :( http://www.andysarcade.net/pix/9000A-8085adapter.rar Unfortunately not much interesting info there... no schems... but i opened it all up and took photos.. stick it on the FTP somewhere i guess.. useful? Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com On 04/03/2013 16:33, John Robertson wrote:
Andrew Welburn wrote:
Just to round this discussion off.. i have this adapter (unused) :
http://www.andysarcade.net/pix/9000A-8085uutadapt.JPG
to quote: "Improves clock signal quality between UUT and the pod by reducing the effects of capacitive loading"
Proof that there are instances where a pod wont work quite right in-circuit. It is rare, but some circuit designs are on the edge and the pod can tip the balance.
Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com
Hi Andy,
Feel like opening the package and sharing a PDF of the instructions? Probably includes a schematic of the mod which may help others (like me) figure out a simple way to improve Pod response...although it may simply be a kit made by Fluke based on their technical tip guide B0151 which has suggested mods:
(ftp) Fluke/PDFs/Training_and_Troubleshooting/B0151-Guide to 8085 Troubleshooting.pdf
Thanks!
John :-#)#
On 19/02/2013 04:12, John Robertson wrote:
David Shoemaker wrote:
The pod has a -1 CPU in it which should be good to 3 mhz the board is a straight 8080a which should be 2mhz. But I tried it with the CPU from the board just for completeness. No improvement. And the pod cpu works fine in game.
I have one board that will at least start up partially with the pod, but two others that just error on Run UUT.
It is really inconsistent. I think the way the memory system works the fluke ram test will never work (strange timing and sync to get the game board rotation stuff to coordinate access to ram).
I have two of these pods, both use the flat ribbon. I tried subbing a twisted ribbon from an 8085 pod but the pod fails self test (I suspect the ground lead is mucking with something).
I was testing an 8080 board only last year, but didn't get it booting, so it is sitting waiting for me to take another go. I can't recall doing the "Run" on any of the 8080 boards recently so haven't any better ideas at the moment...
Perhaps someone else here has a suggestion?
John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 7:23 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
So my mails to tech tools don't appear to be getting through. But this is a raster game so I will cross the stream.
*From:* David Shoemaker [mailto:davids@oz.net] *Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2013 12:20 AM *To:* 'Technical Tools Mail List' *Subject:* Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards?
I have a fully working space invaders board which when I hook the pod up to and do Run UUT doesn't, it starts up and crashes.
Pod passes self test.
Anyone ever done this?
David
Try a faster 8080 CPU in the pod, or try substituting the 8080 from the game in place of the pod CPU. It is possible the CPU is bad or slower than the system can handle.
Do you have the flat ribbon cable from the pod to the CPU socket or the twisted pair cable? The twisted pair cable handles noise better and will work in situations when the simple flat cable won't, plus it can be longer as a result.
David, I have no idea why this did not show up in TTL - you are subscribed under the same email address as you posted here. I haven't seen any bounces for your email address.
John :-#)#
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Hi Andrew, The ftp site moved a while ago - on your side of the pond now! FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment/Fluke/PDFs/Training_and_Troubleshooting/ Thanks for destroying the value of your NOS adapter (will someone please treat Andrew to a cup of tea?), we all appreciate it! I've uploaded a zip version (in case some folks are .rar challenged) to the above mentioned directory. John :-#)# Andrew Welburn wrote:
Why can't i see anything in the flippers ftp today ?
Opening a 30 year old packet! should i? how dare you suggest it! i'll let out the 1983 air! i need my hazmat suit and breathing apparatus..
I just opened it... its value has dropped 1000%. Its now worth $1 :(
http://www.andysarcade.net/pix/9000A-8085adapter.rar
Unfortunately not much interesting info there... no schems... but i opened it all up and took photos.. stick it on the FTP somewhere i guess..
useful?
Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com
On 04/03/2013 16:33, John Robertson wrote:
Andrew Welburn wrote:
Just to round this discussion off.. i have this adapter (unused) :
http://www.andysarcade.net/pix/9000A-8085uutadapt.JPG
to quote: "Improves clock signal quality between UUT and the pod by reducing the effects of capacitive loading"
Proof that there are instances where a pod wont work quite right in-circuit. It is rare, but some circuit designs are on the edge and the pod can tip the balance.
Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com
Hi Andy,
Feel like opening the package and sharing a PDF of the instructions? Probably includes a schematic of the mod which may help others (like me) figure out a simple way to improve Pod response...although it may simply be a kit made by Fluke based on their technical tip guide B0151 which has suggested mods:
(ftp) Fluke/PDFs/Training_and_Troubleshooting/B0151-Guide to 8085 Troubleshooting.pdf
Thanks!
John :-#)#
On 19/02/2013 04:12, John Robertson wrote:
David Shoemaker wrote:
The pod has a -1 CPU in it which should be good to 3 mhz the board is a straight 8080a which should be 2mhz. But I tried it with the CPU from the board just for completeness. No improvement. And the pod cpu works fine in game.
I have one board that will at least start up partially with the pod, but two others that just error on Run UUT.
It is really inconsistent. I think the way the memory system works the fluke ram test will never work (strange timing and sync to get the game board rotation stuff to coordinate access to ram).
I have two of these pods, both use the flat ribbon. I tried subbing a twisted ribbon from an 8085 pod but the pod fails self test (I suspect the ground lead is mucking with something).
I was testing an 8080 board only last year, but didn't get it booting, so it is sitting waiting for me to take another go. I can't recall doing the "Run" on any of the 8080 boards recently so haven't any better ideas at the moment...
Perhaps someone else here has a suggestion?
John :-#)#
-----Original Message----- From: techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com [mailto:techtoolslist-bounces@flippers.com] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 7:23 PM To: techtoolslist@flippers.com Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] RASTER: FW: Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards (Space Invaders)
David Shoemaker wrote:
So my mails to tech tools don't appear to be getting through. But this is a raster game so I will cross the stream.
*From:* David Shoemaker [mailto:davids@oz.net] *Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2013 12:20 AM *To:* 'Technical Tools Mail List' *Subject:* Using 8080 pod on Midway 8080 boards?
I have a fully working space invaders board which when I hook the pod up to and do Run UUT doesn't, it starts up and crashes.
Pod passes self test.
Anyone ever done this?
David
Try a faster 8080 CPU in the pod, or try substituting the 8080 from the game in place of the pod CPU. It is possible the CPU is bad or slower than the system can handle.
Do you have the flat ribbon cable from the pod to the CPU socket or the twisted pair cable? The twisted pair cable handles noise better and will work in situations when the simple flat cable won't, plus it can be longer as a result.
David, I have no idea why this did not show up in TTL - you are subscribed under the same email address as you posted here. I haven't seen any bounces for your email address.
John :-#)#
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
-- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
participants (8)
-
Alex Yeckley -
Alex Yeckley -
Andre Huijts -
Andrew Welburn -
Clay Cowgill -
David Shoemaker -
John Robertson -
Kevin Moore