Re: [Techtoolslist] Fluke 9010a 68000 Pod Eprom Testing onOutrun- help please !!
The generated signatures probably aren't correctly for anything more than 8 bit systems. Or at least I don't guarantee it :-). JB ---------------------------------------- From: "Colin Davies" <colin.w.davies@btopenworld.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 4:11 PM To: "Technical Tools Mail List" <techtoolslist@flippers.com> Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] Fluke 9010a 68000 Pod Eprom Testing onOutrun- help please !! I think the *main* thing that I need to get my head around when using the 68000 pod is that.... If I read 0 > xxxx I get the low (or high ?) 8 bits of the 16 bit data bus.. (0 > xxxx) and If I read 1 > xxxx +1 , I get the other 8 bits of the 16 bit data bus.. ( 0
xxxx)
Is that right ? - am I understanding this correctly ? or do I need to double the xxxx value to take care of the step of 2 ? (or am I just generally going nuts ?) Cheers, Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Davies" <colin.w.davies@btopenworld.com> To: <ayeckley@sierralobo.com>; "Technical Tools Mail List" <techtoolslist@flippers.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] Fluke 9010a 68000 Pod Eprom Testing onOutrun- help please !!
I'll look into the checksums... there was a tool to generate ' FLUKE' style checksums , that I used a couple of years ago on and it worked... I
assume QA has ran them through this algorithm..
I'm 99% sure it's the correct rom revision/s (as its printed on the Label/s) but I could pull and read in.....
Outrun is not protected (Turbo Outrun is with an encrypted cpu) , but there is a custom chip that sits on the CPU bus's that handles a few things, However the address and data bus to the rams and roms come straight from the CPU....... Maybe I've chosen something tricky to start with ?
I'm just hoping that its noob finger trouble and lack of understanding thats the isssue here, lol !!
Regards, Colin
----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Yeckley" <ayeckley@sierralobo.com> To: "'Technical Tools Mail List'" <techtoolslist@flippers.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] Fluke 9010a 68000 Pod Eprom Testing on Outrun- help please !!
Now these are 64k Roms x 8 bits each...... but I'm unable to run ROM tests here..... It fails on checksum....!!!!!!!!!!
Initial thoughts: Are QuarterArcade's checksum values verified? Different ROM rev perhaps? Any copy protection used on OutRun?
Alex ---- ayeckley@elektronforge.com www.elektronforge.com
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_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/ _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
OK... That kind of makes sense.....When I get my pod pluged into the working board again (once I've fixed the header) , I'll try to do some homework !!! eg.... read location 0000 in.... and see if its 16 bits and the pair of 8 bits matches the first bytes of both roms :-) This A0 missing has confused me somewhat, lol !!! Cheers, Colin _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Hi Col, I'd suggest digging out the 68k pod manual and looking at the back of the pod. There are details on the address prefix you use to control whether you're doing a byte or word read, and also user or supervisor mode. I think you can ignore supervisor mode for the time being and run some tests using the byte and word address prefixes in user mode. Basically you add a byte value to the start of the address range and these codes determine the addressing mode of the CPU. The 68k will trap if you try to address a non-word boundary, so the fluke or pod is doing a bit of magic to get single byte reads back. I suspect your checksums are a bit dodgy either because you're reading every other byte, or that you're checksumming words when the tool expects byte input. I promise things will become much clearer when you've correlated the back of the pod instructions with the manual section on addressing modes :) It's not just a normal pod. Good luck, Tim Sent from my iPhone On 9 Jun 2010, at 21:29, "Colin Davies" <colin.w.davies@btopenworld.com> wrote:
OK... That kind of makes sense.....When I get my pod pluged into the working board again (once I've fixed the header) , I'll try to do some homework !!!
eg.... read location 0000 in.... and see if its 16 bits and the pair of 8 bits matches the first bytes of both roms :-)
This A0 missing has confused me somewhat, lol !!!
Cheers, Colin _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
If a 68000 system uses 8 bit roms then they will be interleaved in the memory map, hence generating the rom signature for just the 8 bit rom on it's own is not going to match. I guess it either uses a different algorithm, or you need to interleave the two roms, and generate the checksum for the new double sided rom. biggest pain I found with the Fluke pod is that you can only do 16 bit read/writes - I had some hardware that had a custom chip that processed 32 bit writes, so had to 'poke' some machine code in to ram and call that to do the job. On 09/06/2010 21:29, Colin Davies wrote:
OK... That kind of makes sense.....When I get my pod pluged into the working board again (once I've fixed the header) , I'll try to do some homework !!!
eg.... read location 0000 in.... and see if its 16 bits and the pair of 8 bits matches the first bytes of both roms :-)
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And this is why i love my Fluke 9100A ;-) mwuhahahhahah -- Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Coates" <mike@the-coates.com> To: "Technical Tools Mail List" <techtoolslist@flippers.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 10:44 PM Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] Fluke 9010a 68000 Pod Eprom TestingonOutrun- help please !!
If a 68000 system uses 8 bit roms then they will be interleaved in the memory map, hence generating the rom signature for just the 8 bit rom on it's own is not going to match.
I guess it either uses a different algorithm, or you need to interleave the two roms, and generate the checksum for the new double sided rom.
biggest pain I found with the Fluke pod is that you can only do 16 bit read/writes - I had some hardware that had a custom chip that processed 32 bit writes, so had to 'poke' some machine code in to ram and call that to do the job.
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Andrew Welburn wrote:
And this is why i love my Fluke 9100A ;-)
mwuhahahhahah -- Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com
So, the 9100A (with the programming option) is that much better than the 9010? Eh? I have three of them parked, and was looking into solid state drives to replace the (potentially) dying SCSI ones...maybe the time is now to look at those beasties again! John :-#)#
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Coates" <mike@the-coates.com> To: "Technical Tools Mail List" <techtoolslist@flippers.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 10:44 PM Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] Fluke 9010a 68000 Pod Eprom TestingonOutrun- help please !!
If a 68000 system uses 8 bit roms then they will be interleaved in the memory map, hence generating the rom signature for just the 8 bit rom on it's own is not going to match.
I guess it either uses a different algorithm, or you need to interleave the two roms, and generate the checksum for the new double sided rom.
biggest pain I found with the Fluke pod is that you can only do 16 bit read/writes - I had some hardware that had a custom chip that processed 32 bit writes, so had to 'poke' some machine code in to ram and call that to do the job.
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
-- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Outrun is a pig, and i have not recently tried to work it all out, it has a dynamic memory map. You ned to plug the memory mapper with a bunch of values to put the ram/rom in the releavant memory locations. I messed around with this, but i still couldn't get it to play ball and gave up... However, for other 68k games, 8bit rom and ram interleaving in 16bit designs is no problem at all with the 'Step' command on the 9100, i've not used a 9010, but it doesn't sound like it does stepping. Remember Space invaders is Interleaved ram, apply those principles on 16bit hardware for success ;) -- Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com
Andrew Welburn wrote:
And this is why i love my Fluke 9100A ;-)
mwuhahahhahah -- Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com
So, the 9100A (with the programming option) is that much better than the 9010? Eh?
I have three of them parked, and was looking into solid state drives to replace the (potentially) dying SCSI ones...maybe the time is now to look at those beasties again!
John :-#)#
Are 9010A (or the 9000 series) pods compatable with the 9100A system? Or does it require separate pods? On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 3:36 AM, Andrew Welburn <andy@andysarcade.net>wrote:
Outrun is a pig, and i have not recently tried to work it all out, it has a dynamic memory map.
You ned to plug the memory mapper with a bunch of values to put the ram/rom in the releavant memory locations. I messed around with this, but i still couldn't get it to play ball and gave up...
However, for other 68k games, 8bit rom and ram interleaving in 16bit designs is no problem at all with the 'Step' command on the 9100, i've not used a 9010, but it doesn't sound like it does stepping.
Remember Space invaders is Interleaved ram, apply those principles on 16bit hardware for success ;)
-- Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com
Andrew Welburn wrote:
And this is why i love my Fluke 9100A ;-)
mwuhahahhahah -- Andrew Welburn http://www.andys-arcade.com
So, the 9100A (with the programming option) is that much better than the 9010? Eh?
I have three of them parked, and was looking into solid state drives to replace the (potentially) dying SCSI ones...maybe the time is now to look at those beasties again!
John :-#)#
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
-- -Adam "Please don't judge my God by my inability to follow him" - Chris Mollins =============== www.onecircuit.com www.youtube.com/user/ajcrm125 =============== _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Ahhh.... Is this partly what the big custom is for next to CPU 1 ? - I see its got a number of Chip Selects that mostly go to the bottom board..... Not sure what else it does though, maybe it does blits and things too ?? So far, the CPU 1 Eproms and Rams appear to be 'hard wired memory mapped' , so at least I can get at them initially.... ( I've not looked if the 2nd 68000 shared memory is hard wired yet though ) Its also possible (well I did a quick test and it worked for me) to just run tests on the top board on its own..... obviously you are Blind here..... I'm learning as I go.... If the stuff (maybe on the bottom board) is dynamic, then I'd hope that if you got the top board initially running the code, then it sets up the map for you....and you just prod away at it then..... I do agree that they are indeed a PIG though.... Cheers, Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Welburn" <andy@andysarcade.net> To: <jrr@flippers.com>; "Technical Tools Mail List" <techtoolslist@flippers.com> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 8:36 AM Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] Fluke 9010a 68000 Pod Eprom TestingonOutrun-help please !!
Outrun is a pig, and i have not recently tried to work it all out, it has a dynamic memory map.
You ned to plug the memory mapper with a bunch of values to put the ram/rom in the releavant memory locations. I messed around with this, but i still couldn't get it to play ball and gave up...
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
Mike Coates wrote:
If a 68000 system uses 8 bit roms then they will be interleaved in the memory map, hence generating the rom signature for just the 8 bit rom on it's own is not going to match.
I guess it either uses a different algorithm, or you need to interleave the two roms, and generate the checksum for the new double sided rom.
biggest pain I found with the Fluke pod is that you can only do 16 bit read/writes - I had some hardware that had a custom chip that processed 32 bit writes, so had to 'poke' some machine code in to ram and call that to do the job.
Hey, the machine runs on a Z80! It was designed in the mid to late 70s after all...8-bits was king, 16 and 32 bits were minis or supercomputers. John ;-#)#
On 09/06/2010 21:29, Colin Davies wrote:
OK... That kind of makes sense.....When I get my pod pluged into the working board again (once I've fixed the header) , I'll try to do some homework !!!
eg.... read location 0000 in.... and see if its 16 bits and the pair of 8 bits matches the first bytes of both roms :-)
Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
-- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
not 'dissing it, it's still one of my most used pieces of test gear. (that and a logic probe), although the ABI is also proving useful nowadays ...
Hey, the machine runs on a Z80!
It was designed in the mid to late 70s after all...8-bits was king, 16 and 32 bits were minis or supercomputers.
John ;-#)#
Thanks Guys..... Sussing it out now, slowly !! I just had a quick prod...... Still no luck with the fluke checksums/sigs though so I kind of do suspect that it does do something different.... Heres what I've found out so far..... For the 64K roms (well two of them) From the 'mame generated info' we have ..... 0 - FFFF Rom 1 1 - 10000 Rom 2 This is actually a little misleading.... These roms actually sit at addresses 0 > 1FFFF and not 0000 > FFFF ( So I was at least right about doubling stuff and my schematics unscrambling was right !!!) and they are paired up to give a 16 bit data bus, just like the schematics show.... Fluke only lets you read EVEN adresses... so 00000 is ok , but it doen't like 00001.... So..... 00000 read gives 2 Eproms adr 0000.... 16 bit value... xx yy ... both 8 bit roms .. didn't check which was high and which was low 8 bits though sorry...... 00002 read gives 2 Eproms adr 0001 10000 read gives 2 Eproms adr 8000 10002 read gives 2 Eproms adr 8001 through to 1FFFE.... Eprom adr FFFF 20000 read gives next pair of eproms adr 0000 etc..... So... at least I'm getting somewhere understanding the beast now.... lol.... Now its got me wondering if I've only tested HALF of the Ram memory space usinng the mame generated info... !!! - I'll try that next......;-) Cheers, Colin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Coates" <mike@the-coates.com> To: "Technical Tools Mail List" <techtoolslist@flippers.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 10:44 PM Subject: Re: [Techtoolslist] Fluke 9010a 68000 Pod Eprom TestingonOutrun- help please !!
If a 68000 system uses 8 bit roms then they will be interleaved in the memory map, hence generating the rom signature for just the 8 bit rom on it's own is not going to match.
I guess it either uses a different algorithm, or you need to interleave the two roms, and generate the checksum for the new double sided rom.
biggest pain I found with the Fluke pod is that you can only do 16 bit read/writes - I had some hardware that had a custom chip that processed 32 bit writes, so had to 'poke' some machine code in to ram and call that to do the job.
On 09/06/2010 21:29, Colin Davies wrote:
OK... That kind of makes sense.....When I get my pod pluged into the working board again (once I've fixed the header) , I'll try to do some homework !!!
eg.... read location 0000 in.... and see if its 16 bits and the pair of 8 bits matches the first bytes of both roms :-)
_______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
participants (7)
-
Adam Courchesne -
Andrew Welburn -
Colin Davies -
James Bright -
John Robertson -
Mike Coates -
Tim Matthews