Re: [Techtoolslist] leland off road pal dump needed u85
Il 16/03/2015 21:33, Clay Cowgill ha scritto:
I was aware of this possibility of dumping PLD like a normal EPROM but there could be issue with some programmers. Shouldn't be. It's a five volt part and since you're not writing data to the part the lack of OE shouldn't be an issue. (I suppose if you were particularly concerned you could just buffer the output pins with a '244 connected to the 2716's CE's and OE.)
/*I mean the programmer you are going to use for dumping a PLD as EPROM must *//**//*actually drive the pins both high and low for this to work.Some programmers only drive LOW the pins and use pull-up resistors to force them HIGH. Anyway, like Charles MacDonald explain here: http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/old2009.php you can also read a PAL as a 27C020 EPROM using this simple adapter: http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/temp/adapter2.png *//*/*You will get a 256KB dump that can be analized with his analysing software in order to recompile equations in a GAL16V8 replacement*/ */
-Clay
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On 03/16/2015 1:49 PM, Fabrizio Vasile wrote:
Il 16/03/2015 21:33, Clay Cowgill ha scritto:
I was aware of this possibility of dumping PLD like a normal EPROM but there could be issue with some programmers. Shouldn't be. It's a five volt part and since you're not writing data to the part the lack of OE shouldn't be an issue. (I suppose if you were particularly concerned you could just buffer the output pins with a '244 connected to the 2716's CE's and OE.)
/*I mean the programmer you are going to use for dumping a PLD as EPROM must *//**//*actually drive the pins both high and low for this to work.Some programmers only drive LOW the pins and use pull-up resistors to force them HIGH.
Anyway, like Charles MacDonald explain here:
http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/old2009.php
you can also read a PAL as a 27C020 EPROM using this simple adapter:
http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/temp/adapter2.png
*//*/*You will get a 256KB dump that can be analized with his analysing software in order to recompile equations in a GAL16V8 replacement*/ */
-Clay
Did anyone ever do the dump of the PALs for the Track Pack version of OFFROAD? I have a board in the shop now that I am hoping to be able to fix for a customer. Either that or MAME a replacement into his cabinet, not sure if that would work with three steering wheels, but I suspect the Raspberry Pi may be up to it as a single emulation... John :-#)# -- How to subscribe or unsubscribe from TTL http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist
On 03/16/2015 1:49 PM, Fabrizio Vasile wrote:
Il 16/03/2015 21:33, Clay Cowgill ha scritto:
I was aware of this possibility of dumping PLD like a normal EPROM but there could be issue with some programmers. Shouldn't be. It's a five volt part and since you're not writing data to the part the lack of OE shouldn't be an issue. (I suppose if you were particularly concerned you could just buffer the output pins with a '244 connected to the 2716's CE's and OE.)
/*I mean the programmer you are going to use for dumping a PLD as EPROM must *//**//*actually drive the pins both high and low for this to work.Some programmers only drive LOW the pins and use pull-up resistors to force them HIGH.
Anyway, like Charles MacDonald explain here:
http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/old2009.php
you can also read a PAL as a 27C020 EPROM using this simple adapter:
http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/temp/adapter2.png
*//*/*You will get a 256KB dump that can be analized with his analysing software in order to recompile equations in a GAL16V8 replacement*/ */
-Clay
Back to reading PALs. On a customers Leland Offroad Track Pak I have a PAL16R8 (08-2) to read, and it was suggested here that the 16R8 could be read with the correct technology: http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=141212179614845&w=2 So, has anyone here found a way to read the registered PALs? Or do I just need to look a little harder on MAME to find the decrypted PAL images? Thanks, John :-#)# -- How to subscribe or unsubscribe from TTL http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist
Unfortunately there is no way to reverse registered secured PLDs thru an automated process.All you can do is study the behaviour of the device and try to reproduce it manually.Anyway, about this Leland Offroad Track Pak PAL16R8, try to read it in a standard EPROM programmer which supports this device, it could be unsecured. Il 07/09/2016 03:17, John Robertson ha scritto:
On 03/16/2015 1:49 PM, Fabrizio Vasile wrote:
Il 16/03/2015 21:33, Clay Cowgill ha scritto:
I was aware of this possibility of dumping PLD like a normal EPROM but there could be issue with some programmers. Shouldn't be. It's a five volt part and since you're not writing data to the part the lack of OE shouldn't be an issue. (I suppose if you were particularly concerned you could just buffer the output pins with a '244 connected to the 2716's CE's and OE.)
/*I mean the programmer you are going to use for dumping a PLD as EPROM must *//**//*actually drive the pins both high and low for this to work.Some programmers only drive LOW the pins and use pull-up resistors to force them HIGH.
Anyway, like Charles MacDonald explain here:
http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/old2009.php
you can also read a PAL as a 27C020 EPROM using this simple adapter:
http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/temp/adapter2.png
*//*/*You will get a 256KB dump that can be analized with his analysing software in order to recompile equations in a GAL16V8 replacement*/ */
-Clay
Back to reading PALs.
On a customers Leland Offroad Track Pak I have a PAL16R8 (08-2) to read, and it was suggested here that the 16R8 could be read with the correct technology:
http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=141212179614845&w=2
So, has anyone here found a way to read the registered PALs? Or do I just need to look a little harder on MAME to find the decrypted PAL images?
Thanks,
John :-#)#
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I tried to read it as a eprom did not work And I have a abi 4000 and I can read it I have not been able to compile the file I just get errors trying to convert it Need another program for conversion Sent from my iPhone Hitech tony
On Sep 7, 2016, at 2:45 AM, Fabrizio Vasile <fabrizio.vasile@gmail.com> wrote:
Unfortunately there is no way to reverse registered secured PLDs thru an automated process.All you can do is study the behaviour of the device and try to reproduce it manually.Anyway, about this Leland Offroad Track Pak PAL16R8, try to read it in a standard EPROM programmer which supports this device, it could be unsecured.
Il 07/09/2016 03:17, John Robertson ha scritto:
On 03/16/2015 1:49 PM, Fabrizio Vasile wrote:
Il 16/03/2015 21:33, Clay Cowgill ha scritto:
I was aware of this possibility of dumping PLD like a normal EPROM but there could be issue with some programmers. Shouldn't be. It's a five volt part and since you're not writing data to the part the lack of OE shouldn't be an issue. (I suppose if you were particularly concerned you could just buffer the output pins with a '244 connected to the 2716's CE's and OE.)
/*I mean the programmer you are going to use for dumping a PLD as EPROM must *//**//*actually drive the pins both high and low for this to work.Some programmers only drive LOW the pins and use pull-up resistors to force them HIGH.
Anyway, like Charles MacDonald explain here:
http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/old2009.php
you can also read a PAL as a 27C020 EPROM using this simple adapter:
http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/temp/adapter2.png
*//*/*You will get a 256KB dump that can be analized with his analysing software in order to recompile equations in a GAL16V8 replacement*/ */
-Clay
Back to reading PALs.
On a customers Leland Offroad Track Pak I have a PAL16R8 (08-2) to read, and it was suggested here that the 16R8 could be read with the correct technology:
http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=141212179614845&w=2
So, has anyone here found a way to read the registered PALs? Or do I just need to look a little harder on MAME to find the decrypted PAL images?
Thanks,
John :-#)#
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Neither 27C020 EPROM adapter and ABI 4000 can read secured registered PLDs.As I said, we can only try to read as PAL16R8 in a regular programmer hoping it's unsecured. Il 07/09/2016 13:44, tony htbs ha scritto:
I tried to read it as a eprom did not work And I have a abi 4000 and I can read it I have not been able to compile the file I just get errors trying to convert it Need another program for conversion
Sent from my iPhone Hitech tony
On Sep 7, 2016, at 2:45 AM, Fabrizio Vasile <fabrizio.vasile@gmail.com> wrote:
Unfortunately there is no way to reverse registered secured PLDs thru an automated process.All you can do is study the behaviour of the device and try to reproduce it manually.Anyway, about this Leland Offroad Track Pak PAL16R8, try to read it in a standard EPROM programmer which supports this device, it could be unsecured.
Il 07/09/2016 03:17, John Robertson ha scritto:
On 03/16/2015 1:49 PM, Fabrizio Vasile wrote:
Il 16/03/2015 21:33, Clay Cowgill ha scritto:
I was aware of this possibility of dumping PLD like a normal EPROM but there could be issue with some programmers. Shouldn't be. It's a five volt part and since you're not writing data to the part the lack of OE shouldn't be an issue. (I suppose if you were particularly concerned you could just buffer the output pins with a '244 connected to the 2716's CE's and OE.) /*I mean the programmer you are going to use for dumping a PLD as EPROM must *//**//*actually drive the pins both high and low for this to work.Some programmers only drive LOW the pins and use pull-up resistors to force them HIGH.
Anyway, like Charles MacDonald explain here:
http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/old2009.php
you can also read a PAL as a 27C020 EPROM using this simple adapter:
http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/temp/adapter2.png
*//*/*You will get a 256KB dump that can be analized with his analysing software in order to recompile equations in a GAL16V8 replacement*/ */
-Clay Back to reading PALs.
On a customers Leland Offroad Track Pak I have a PAL16R8 (08-2) to read, and it was suggested here that the 16R8 could be read with the correct technology:
http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=141212179614845&w=2
So, has anyone here found a way to read the registered PALs? Or do I just need to look a little harder on MAME to find the decrypted PAL images?
Thanks,
John :-#)#
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I believe Tony is using the ABI to dump the contents of the PROM as pointed out here: http://www.macros-arcade.com/paldump.htm On 7 September 2016 at 14:30, Fabrizio Vasile <fabrizio.vasile@gmail.com> wrote:
Neither 27C020 EPROM adapter and ABI 4000 can read secured registered PLDs.As I said, we can only try to read as PAL16R8 in a regular programmer hoping it's unsecured.
Il 07/09/2016 13:44, tony htbs ha scritto:
I tried to read it as a eprom did not work And I have a abi 4000 and I can read it I have not been able to compile the file I just get errors trying to convert it Need another program for conversion
Sent from my iPhone Hitech tony
On Sep 7, 2016, at 2:45 AM, Fabrizio Vasile <fabrizio.vasile@gmail.com>
wrote:
Unfortunately there is no way to reverse registered secured PLDs thru an automated process.All you can do is study the behaviour of the device and try to reproduce it manually.Anyway, about this Leland Offroad Track Pak PAL16R8, try to read it in a standard EPROM programmer which supports this device, it could be unsecured.
Il 07/09/2016 03:17, John Robertson ha scritto:
On 03/16/2015 1:49 PM, Fabrizio Vasile wrote:
Il 16/03/2015 21:33, Clay Cowgill ha scritto:
I was aware of this possibility of dumping PLD like a normal EPROM but > there could be issue with some programmers. > Shouldn't be. It's a five volt part and since you're not writing data to the part the lack of OE shouldn't be an issue. (I suppose if you were particularly concerned you could just buffer the output pins with a '244 connected to the 2716's CE's and OE.)
/*I mean the programmer you are going to use for dumping a PLD as EPROM must *//**//*actually drive the pins both high and low for this to work.Some programmers only drive LOW the pins and use pull-up resistors to force them HIGH.
Anyway, like Charles MacDonald explain here:
http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/old2009.php
you can also read a PAL as a 27C020 EPROM using this simple adapter:
http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/temp/adapter2.png
*//*/*You will get a 256KB dump that can be analized with his analysing software in order to recompile equations in a GAL16V8 replacement*/ */
-Clay
Back to reading PALs.
On a customers Leland Offroad Track Pak I have a PAL16R8 (08-2) to read, and it was suggested here that the 16R8 could be read with the correct technology:
http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=141212179614845&w=2
So, has anyone here found a way to read the registered PALs? Or do I just need to look a little harder on MAME to find the decrypted PAL images?
Thanks,
John :-#)#
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We are speaking of PAL and not bipolar PROM. Anyway, you CANNOT dump a registered PAL with the ABI 4000 neither with other PAL dumper.Among the other things the ABI dumping program is heavely based on the Charles MacDonald analysing program.Charles is the desighner of the 27C020 PAL adapter and the standalone PAL dumper I think I have some experience with PAL since I'm (Caius) the maintainer (along with my mate Porchy) of the PAL archive on http://www.jammarcade.net/pal-dumps/ Il 07/09/2016 16:36, Steve Larkins ha scritto:
I believe Tony is using the ABI to dump the contents of the PROM as pointed out here:
http://www.macros-arcade.com/paldump.htm
On 7 September 2016 at 14:30, Fabrizio Vasile <fabrizio.vasile@gmail.com> wrote:
Neither 27C020 EPROM adapter and ABI 4000 can read secured registered PLDs.As I said, we can only try to read as PAL16R8 in a regular programmer hoping it's unsecured.
Il 07/09/2016 13:44, tony htbs ha scritto:
I tried to read it as a eprom did not work And I have a abi 4000 and I can read it I have not been able to compile the file I just get errors trying to convert it Need another program for conversion
Sent from my iPhone Hitech tony
On Sep 7, 2016, at 2:45 AM, Fabrizio Vasile <fabrizio.vasile@gmail.com>
wrote:
Unfortunately there is no way to reverse registered secured PLDs thru an automated process.All you can do is study the behaviour of the device and try to reproduce it manually.Anyway, about this Leland Offroad Track Pak PAL16R8, try to read it in a standard EPROM programmer which supports this device, it could be unsecured.
Il 07/09/2016 03:17, John Robertson ha scritto:
On 03/16/2015 1:49 PM, Fabrizio Vasile wrote:
Il 16/03/2015 21:33, Clay Cowgill ha scritto:
> I was aware of this possibility of dumping PLD like a normal EPROM but >> there could be issue with some programmers. >> > Shouldn't be. It's a five volt part and since you're not writing > data to > the part the lack of OE shouldn't be an issue. (I suppose if you were > particularly concerned you could just buffer the output pins with a > '244 > connected to the 2716's CE's and OE.) > /*I mean the programmer you are going to use for dumping a PLD as EPROM must *//**//*actually drive the pins both high and low for this to work.Some programmers only drive LOW the pins and use pull-up resistors to force them HIGH.
Anyway, like Charles MacDonald explain here:
http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/old2009.php
you can also read a PAL as a 27C020 EPROM using this simple adapter:
http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/temp/adapter2.png
*//*/*You will get a 256KB dump that can be analized with his analysing software in order to recompile equations in a GAL16V8 replacement*/ */
> -Clay > Back to reading PALs.
On a customers Leland Offroad Track Pak I have a PAL16R8 (08-2) to read, and it was suggested here that the 16R8 could be read with the correct technology:
http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=141212179614845&w=2
So, has anyone here found a way to read the registered PALs? Or do I just need to look a little harder on MAME to find the decrypted PAL images?
Thanks,
John :-#)#
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On 09/07/2016 7:54 AM, Fabrizio Vasile wrote:
We are speaking of PAL and not bipolar PROM.
Anyway, you CANNOT dump a registered PAL with the ABI 4000 neither with other PAL dumper.Among the other things the ABI dumping program is heavely based on the Charles MacDonald analysing program.Charles is the desighner of the 27C020 PAL adapter and the standalone PAL dumper
I think I have some experience with PAL since I'm (Caius) the maintainer (along with my mate Porchy) of the PAL archive on http://www.jammarcade.net/pal-dumps/
Well, my 16R4 PAL is appears to have the security bit set when I tried to read it on my Xeltek programmer it just gives me a block of 1s for a chunk of the memory map. Nothing else. I have seen suggestions that one can decode the registered PALs with enough coding, but that is way beyond my abilities I'm afraid. I know Charles has worked on this on and off since at least 2006. Also his current reader will support registered PALs once he (and his pals) figure out how to do it! http://www.techno-junk.org/ if you want to see where that is at. As an aside, it appears that PalToGal v3.12 works better than the PAL2GAL3.15 version I have on the TTL archives. I found a copy here: http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public/Pgmrs/GAL/jedec.htm and it does give you a better interface for converting valid .jed files. I'll upload it later and remove 3.15. Well, I guess I am having to stop work on reading my 16R4 for now, have many other jobs to do and as I have a good one the customer will be happy enough. Until it fails... John ;-#)# PS, I see you have dumped the 9100 SCSI PAL, great news! Thanks to Andrew for sharing this.
Il 07/09/2016 16:36, Steve Larkins ha scritto:
I believe Tony is using the ABI to dump the contents of the PROM as pointed out here:
http://www.macros-arcade.com/paldump.htm
On 7 September 2016 at 14:30, Fabrizio Vasile <fabrizio.vasile@gmail.com> wrote:
Neither 27C020 EPROM adapter and ABI 4000 can read secured registered PLDs.As I said, we can only try to read as PAL16R8 in a regular programmer hoping it's unsecured.
Il 07/09/2016 13:44, tony htbs ha scritto:
I tried to read it as a eprom did not work And I have a abi 4000 and I can read it I have not been able to compile the file I just get errors trying to convert it Need another program for conversion
Sent from my iPhone Hitech tony
On Sep 7, 2016, at 2:45 AM, Fabrizio Vasile <fabrizio.vasile@gmail.com>
wrote:
Unfortunately there is no way to reverse registered secured PLDs thru an automated process.All you can do is study the behaviour of the device and try to reproduce it manually.Anyway, about this Leland Offroad Track Pak PAL16R8, try to read it in a standard EPROM programmer which supports this device, it could be unsecured.
Il 07/09/2016 03:17, John Robertson ha scritto:
On 03/16/2015 1:49 PM, Fabrizio Vasile wrote: > > Il 16/03/2015 21:33, Clay Cowgill ha scritto: > >> I was aware of this possibility of dumping PLD like a normal >> EPROM but >>> there could be issue with some programmers. >>> >> Shouldn't be. It's a five volt part and since you're not writing >> data to >> the part the lack of OE shouldn't be an issue. (I suppose if >> you were >> particularly concerned you could just buffer the output pins >> with a >> '244 >> connected to the 2716's CE's and OE.) >> > /*I mean the programmer you are going to use for dumping a PLD as > EPROM must *//**//*actually drive the pins both high and low for > this to > work.Some programmers only drive LOW the pins and use pull-up > resistors to > force them HIGH. > > Anyway, like Charles MacDonald explain here: > > http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/old2009.php > > you can also read a PAL as a 27C020 EPROM using this simple > adapter: > > http://dreamjam.co.uk/emuviews/temp/adapter2.png > > *//*/*You will get a 256KB dump that can be analized with his > analysing software in order to recompile equations in a GAL16V8 > replacement*/ > */ > >> -Clay >> > Back to reading PALs. On a customers Leland Offroad Track Pak I have a PAL16R8 (08-2) to read, and it was suggested here that the 16R8 could be read with the correct technology:
http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=141212179614845&w=2
So, has anyone here found a way to read the registered PALs? Or do I just need to look a little harder on MAME to find the decrypted PAL images?
Thanks,
John :-#)#
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send me the file - I found that the lattice software can sometimes optimise and make things fit that WinCUPL cannot. it may still not compile / work - but worth a look. as pointed out, none of the pal crackers reliably work with registered devices Mike On 07 September 2016 at 12:44 tony htbs <tony@htbsusa.com> wrote: I tried to read it as a eprom did not work And I have a abi 4000 and I can read it I have not been able to compile the file I just get errors trying to convert it Need another program for conversion Sent from my iPhone Hitech tony _______________________________________________ Techtoolslist mailing list Techtoolslist@flippers.com https://pairlist7.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ttl.arcadetech.org/TTL/Test_Equipment Archive site: http://seven.pairlist.net/pipermail/techtoolslist/
I was thinking the same thing. If the security fuse is popped, you can't reach the data area. Can't help but think that a back door has to exist. What do you know of in today's chip world that has no back door? I have lucked out and found some devices over the years that were NOT secured. (Would like to have some blank PL105's) {IIRC} On 9/7/2016 2:45 AM, Fabrizio Vasile wrote:
Unfortunately there is no way to reverse registered secured PLDs thru an automated process.All you can do is study the behaviour of the device and try to reproduce it manually.Anyway, about this Leland Offroad Track Pak PAL16R8, try to read it in a standard EPROM programmer which supports this device, it could be unsecured.
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participants (6)
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Dave Riddle (Technical Dept.) -
Fabrizio Vasile -
John Robertson -
Mike Coates -
Steve Larkins -
tony htbs